disposable metal skins

Couldn't you design a metal skin to protect the tiles that would
evaporate during ascent and reduce the stress on the tiles?

You know certain metals evaporate at a certain temperature, you could
possibly control that so that the tiles are protected until reaching
the upper atmosphere?

wrote in message
oups.com...
Couldn't you design a metal skin to protect the tiles that would
evaporate during ascent and reduce the stress on the tiles?

You know certain metals evaporate at a certain temperature, you could
possibly control that so that the tiles are protected until reaching
the upper atmosphere?



Why not just use warp drive?

wrote in message
oups.com...
Couldn't you design a metal skin to protect the tiles that would
evaporate during ascent and reduce the stress on the tiles?

You know certain metals evaporate at a certain temperature, you could
possibly control that so that the tiles are protected until reaching
the upper atmosphere?


Heck with that, spin up a carbon composite shell, latch it on between tank
and hull, then go out and unlatch it on orbit. It wouldn't even have to be
very sturdy.

"c-bee1" wrote in message
news:_BXFe.212650$xm3.117288@attbi_s21...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Couldn't you design a metal skin to protect the tiles that would
evaporate during ascent and reduce the stress on the tiles?

You know certain metals evaporate at a certain temperature, you could
possibly control that so that the tiles are protected until reaching
the upper atmosphere?


Heck with that, spin up a carbon composite shell, latch it on between
tank
and hull, then go out and unlatch it on orbit. It wouldn't even have to
be
very sturdy.


Please pass junior high school science before passing go and attempting to
collect $200.

wrote:

Couldn't you design a metal skin to protect the tiles that would
evaporate during ascent and reduce the stress on the tiles?

You know certain metals evaporate at a certain temperature, you could
possibly control that so that the tiles are protected until reaching
the upper atmosphere?

It's all a weight vs payload issue. Also, adding any sort of "protective"
whatever, skin, coating or any of the other rather outlandish suggestions
I've read in other posts to keep the foam shedding off would likely pose an
even greater hazard of "shedding" and shuttle damage then the foam would.

Lastly, anyone remember Skylab and what happened when it's "shield"which was
in essence a second skin to protect the lab in orbit from micrometeoroid
impacts stripped off the lab during ascent? It completely ripped off during
max Q and tore off a solar panel nearly totaling the workshop.

T.B.

TB wrote:
whatever, skin, coating or any of the other rather outlandish suggestions
I've read in other posts to keep the foam shedding off would likely pose an
even greater hazard of "shedding" and shuttle damage then the foam would.


Correct. At the moment, the foam is in fact the safest: with it, the shuttle
won't fly.

The foam supporters were given 2 yeras and carte blanche to fix the problems
of Columbia. They failed.

Time to give other solutions a chance.

What is more likely to happen though is that those engineers will be given
another chance, will come up with some minor change and claim that it will fix
the problems once and for all. They launch Atlantis, notice the same foam
shedding problem and ground shuttles for good this time.

"c-bee1" wrote in message
news:_BXFe.212650$xm3.117288@attbi_s21...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Couldn't you design a metal skin to protect the tiles that would
evaporate during ascent and reduce the stress on the tiles?

You know certain metals evaporate at a certain temperature, you could
possibly control that so that the tiles are protected until reaching
the upper atmosphere?


Heck with that, spin up a carbon composite shell, latch it on between
tank
and hull, then go out and unlatch it on orbit. It wouldn't even have to
be
very sturdy.


Or better yet, double-hull the tank. In other words, add another thin
layer of either aluminum or carbon composite over the foam insulation to
prevent the foam from separating and flying off altogether. There would be
weight constraints, of course, but the foam by itself is obviously not
working.

Yes, double-hull the tank, that's exactly what adding another skin
would do. I find it hard to swallow the weight constraint excuses --
if its that expensive to fly maybe we shouldn't put stuff that big in
orbit.

I bought some foam insulation in a sheet from the local hardware store
and literally had to fight my way to the truck to put it in. The stuff
wheighs only a few ounces, but it sure knows how to catch air. It
didn't seem like there was any breeze at all, but that foam made me
fight through the parking lot with it. So perhaps what we think is
"normal" is a little more complicated than we think it is.

Maybe just spraying the foam with a protective polymer coating would be
enough to keep it from grabbing air molecules trying to rip it apart.

It's not hard to imagine a sky-scraper size amount of air molecules
trying to squeeze by your skin as you push through it as Superman?

You want to neutralize the qualities of the material that tends to grab
air molecules while retaining insulating properties?

It's not hard science, it just takes a long time experimenting with
what works.

It's just like the protective tiles that cover the shuttle. We know
plastic will burn away. Why don't they cover the tiles with protective
coatings, put them into orbit with a rocket, and test their re-entry
(without being on a shuttle)?

Maybe you don't get a 100% protective coating. But maybe you increase
your protection 20%. That's better than not trying.

Sure warp drive would be a lot easier. But then all these nerds here
on earth would think they are entitled to vehicles that fly through the
air?

If we are so intelligent we cannot manage traffic on the ground, I'm
not so sure teeny boppy richy sue should be trusted with 3-d navigation
while yapping with her friends and lord knows what else?

And of course if they develop technology that will navigate for you, do
you think they will ration it for the mass transit population?

Maybe vehicles with warp drive are too difficult to control, and would
be too difficult to police? How do you stop someone going Mach 4
without blowing them up?

Considering how many vehicles are destroyed by forcing the poor to
drive unsafe, and hard to repair vehicles, I don't relish the idea of
having the same folks that sell cars sell vehicles that fly through the
air.

I think the prices of vehicles are manupulated in favor of those
profiting from them rather than market conditions.
But that's a discussion for another forum, this is about the Shuttle.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Maybe just spraying the foam with a protective polymer coating would be
enough to keep it from grabbing air molecules trying to rip it apart.


Its not that simple. If you spray it with a protective polymer, as you say,
then you risk having the foam fall off in larger, polymer coated, chunks
which could cause more damage to the orbiter than the way it is now.

There are many different facets to this problem: aerodynamics, insulating
qualities, weight restrictions....etc. The solution has to satisfy all of
these different facets before it can be considered viable.

It's not like NASA hasn't thought of these alternatives before now.

JD

"Joe Delphi" wrote in message
news:zk5Ge.174735$Qo.16790@fed1read01...
wrote in message
ups.com...

Maybe just spraying the foam with a protective polymer coating would be
enough to keep it from grabbing air molecules trying to rip it apart.


Its not that simple. If you spray it with a protective polymer, as you
say,
then you risk having the foam fall off in larger, polymer coated, chunks
which could cause more damage to the orbiter than the way it is now.

There are many different facets to this problem: aerodynamics,
insulating
qualities, weight restrictions....etc. The solution has to satisfy all
of
these different facets before it can be considered viable.

It's not like NASA hasn't thought of these alternatives before now.

JD


I think aerodynamics is part of the problem. They are trying to force
something with a rough foam surface to fly many times above the speed of
sound through a dense atmosphere. The turbulence that has to cause may be
part of the problem, causing vibrations in the skin of the fuel tank and
possibly cuasing the foam to come loose. The outer tank could consist of
two hulls between which is sandwiched insulation to prevent ice from
forming; the outer hull wouldn't even have to be very thick, and could be
made more aerodynamic to minimize turbulence. Just my two cents worth.