.....NASA, Lockheed Martin Agree On X-33 Plan !

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

Just one month before Bush wins the White House~


Atlanta Inquirer
10-14-2000
NASA, Lockheed Martin Agree On X-33 Plan

NASA and Lockheed Martin have agreed on a plan to go forward with the X-33
space plane program, to include aluminum fuel tanks for the vehicle's
hydrogen fuel, a revised payment schedule and a target launch date in 2003.
The launch date is a contingent on Lockheed Martin's ability to compete and
win additional funding under the Space Launch Initiative. NASA and Lockheed
believe it is critical to continue work to solve the last remaining barrier
to low-cost, reliable access to space.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79131028.html


I see no malice by the administration here, only incompetence in picking the
most technologically challenging X-33 proposal and actually expecting it to
lead to a mature flight prototype.

Not malice, militarization.

My point is that few here seem to realize how ambitious our military
has become with their intended space capabilities. In their own words
below, the X-33 and X-37 would give them only a fraction of what
they /want/ for future military space operations.

"These demonstrators fill only small parts of the flight profiles
required to field and operate military space plane."

And it's quite clear the Pentagon now considers reusable and low cost to orbit
to be a very valuable future military capability. A capability our military
should have as soon as possible, but without making it available
to adversaries. Meaning secret!

The X-33 and X-37 were publicly canceled, but it's clear they
were simply taken over by the Pentagon to use the various
advances for some other ....far more ambitious....space capability.
Some future military space plane. It's not like they make their
goals a secret.

The X-33 and X-37 dropped off the face of the earth just as they
were about to become reality. Amidst an obviously choreographed
volley of criticism. The only reason you folks can't see that is because
you were here when it happened.

Looking back it's rather obvious the programs went black.

A few clips from the horses mouth below, which essentially says...


"take over X-33, X-37, also the NASA funding for SSO, then
cannibalize the technology for the future military space plane"



Military Spaceplane (MSP) and Reusable Launch Vehicle Study
AF Space Command


Space Forces

Providing Direct Combat Capabilities to
Promote Peace & Stability; Fight & Win
Rapid Aerospace Dominance
The Conceptual Framework for Employing
Aerospace Power in Future Joint Warfighting


X-33:

Demonstrates Launch Environment Dynamics

- Liftoff to Mach 11 (need Mach 15+)
- Opportunity to develop operational processes

X-37:

Demonstrates limited set of Re-Entry Environment Dynamics

- Heating and deceleration conditions from orbit to landing
- Opportunity to develop refurbishment protocols

These demonstrators fill only small parts of the flight profiles required
to field and operate military space plane.
X-33 and X-37 provide only limited advances in some technologies
enabling AFSPC capabilities but would help establish tech needs


..X-33 & X-37 have made significant contributions toward understanding achievable
vehicle performance, cost, and integration issues
..will improve system engineering tools and databases
..completion of programs would permit capture of vehicle integration and
operations data

X-33 Program Assessment

Program Plan

.. Complete 1 demonstration vehicle
.. 7 Flights
.. Max. Velocity: Mach 8-11
.. Launch site complete

..Perform an independent assessment of the X-33 and X-37 projects
.As an MSP demonstrator
.For a specific follow-on program

..NASA and AF need to harmonize space technology investments
.Incorporate SLI initiatives and funding

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...k &cd=1&gl=us



From...."the last remaining barrier", to "problem plagued" in just four
months!
Eight million dollars away from a new tank, the 'last barrier', to realizing
reusable low cost to orbit, and it just vanishes into thin air.

It really was problem plagued.


Problems that were mostly solved by the time it was cancelled.
Even NASA and Lockheed stated the fuel tank was the
"last hurdle". An eight million dollar hurdle??? Not much
of a hurdle when we're talking about an important step
for a future shuttle replacement.

You guys just don't seem to see the military value low cost
to orbit can have. Bush/Cheney define the notion of
being pro-military industrial complex.



Jonathan

In sci.space.history jonathan wrote:

[Stuff about making "Crossbow" a reality deleted]

Problems that were mostly solved by the time it was cancelled. Even
NASA and Lockheed stated the fuel tank was the "last hurdle". An
eight million dollar hurdle??? Not much of a hurdle when we're
talking about an important step for a future shuttle replacement.

Any entity/organization operating in the bureaucratic seas will likely
say "this is the last hurdle" but often as not it is the "last hurdle
we know about right now" at least until the thing flies.

You guys just don't seem to see the military value low cost to orbit
can have.

I don't see where what has been posted before supports that, simply
that they don't believe the hype put-out about the X-33 being "that
close" to being ready.

rick jones
--
Process shall set you free from the need for rational thought.
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway...
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

Just one month before Bush wins the White House~


Atlanta Inquirer
10-14-2000
NASA, Lockheed Martin Agree On X-33 Plan

NASA and Lockheed Martin have agreed on a plan to go forward with the
X-33
space plane program, to include aluminum fuel tanks for the vehicle's
hydrogen fuel, a revised payment schedule and a target launch date in
2003.
The launch date is a contingent on Lockheed Martin's ability to compete
and
win additional funding under the Space Launch Initiative. NASA and
Lockheed
believe it is critical to continue work to solve the last remaining
barrier
to low-cost, reliable access to space.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79131028.html


I see no malice by the administration here, only incompetence in picking
the
most technologically challenging X-33 proposal and actually expecting it
to
lead to a mature flight prototype.

Not malice, militarization.

I call b.s. As far as I'm concerned, there is no credible evidence that the
US military had any interest in terminating X-33. If anything, if X-33 had
flown, they would have gotten some good data from it, just as NASA would
have.

The fact is that the US military is not that interested in pushing
reusability of launch vehicles. Witness the fact that we already have to
underutilized EELV's, developed to meet US military requirements for
launching military payloads. They're currently moderately interested in
reusable upper stages/satellites, which could be launched by existing launch
vehicles. But I absolutely don't see them pouring tens of billions of
dollars into developing them, unlike other emerging military technologies.

Remember, no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. Show me the money. If the US military
really is *very* interested in these sorts of technologies, why don't we see
them spending the money to make them a reality? The answer is they're
interested, but not *that* interested.

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

Just one month before Bush wins the White House~


Atlanta Inquirer
10-14-2000
NASA, Lockheed Martin Agree On X-33 Plan

NASA and Lockheed Martin have agreed on a plan to go forward with the X-33
space plane program, to include aluminum fuel tanks for the vehicle's
hydrogen fuel, a revised payment schedule and a target launch date in 2003.
The launch date is a contingent on Lockheed Martin's ability to compete and
win additional funding under the Space Launch Initiative. NASA and Lockheed
believe it is critical to continue work to solve the last remaining barrier
to low-cost, reliable access to space.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79131028.html


I see no malice by the administration here, only incompetence in picking the
most technologically challenging X-33 proposal and actually expecting it to
lead to a mature flight prototype.

Not malice, militarization.

I call b.s. As far as I'm concerned, there is no credible evidence that the
US military had any interest in terminating X-33. If anything, if X-33 had
flown, they would have gotten some good data from it, just as NASA would have.

The fact is that the US military is not that interested in pushing reusability
of launch vehicles. Witness the fact that we already have to underutilized
EELV's, developed to meet US military requirements for launching military
payloads. They're currently moderately interested in reusable upper
stages/satellites, which could be launched by existing launch vehicles. But I
absolutely don't see them pouring tens of billions of dollars into developing
them, unlike other emerging military technologies.

Remember, no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. Show me the money.


You mean the Pentagon black budget?
The whole point of this thread is to figure out what happened to
/decades of effort/ to build reusable or SSO vehicles. Has it
actually been abandoned, or merely moved to the Pentagon?

The evidence is pretty clear it's been moved to the Pentagon.

For starters, the AFSPC plan I posted essentially says
to take the technology of the two scale demonstrators and use
them in the next step, a full scale military space plane. And
the plan was clear they thought the X-37 was the better of the
two. And here we see the X-37b is about to launch. So it's
rather logical to assume that 'plan' is proceeding just as
it's written.

Else why bother with the X-37b???

So I conclude this country is still trying to build the next
generation of space plane. Something that will help
fullfill the long sought promise of low cost to orbit.

But post 9/11, it's also clear such a capability is a the
next military high ground. Just as the first jet, the sound
barrier and the fastest have always been military secrets.
A space plane should be a highly guarded secret also.

And having the Pentagon and NASA continue to
share a black budget project to completion doesn't
really make any sense.

If the US military really is *very* interested in these sorts of
technologies, why don't we see them spending the money to make them a reality?
The answer is they're interested, but not *that* interested.


How can we know how much the Pentagon is spending, or at
what level their latest technology has achieved? If it's a military
capability, we're not going to get any real details.




Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today. My
own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

You mean the Pentagon black budget?
The whole point of this thread is to figure out what happened to
/decades of effort/ to build reusable or SSO vehicles. Has it
actually been abandoned, or merely moved to the Pentagon?

The evidence is pretty clear it's been moved to the Pentagon.

Only in your dreams. The only evidence I see of reusable launch vehicle
development is the very *low level* development seen with vehicles like
X-37b. Again, if this was a *priority*, they'd be spending 10's of billions
of dollars and would be doing more than tiny research projects and a little
X-vehicle.

We've got precious little to show for our efforts in this area from the 60's
(lifting bodies, ASSET, X-20, and etc.) to today. And it's my opinion that
a lot of that is due to lack of priority and lack of funding.

In that time period we've fielded new bomber types (B-1, B-2), new air
superiority fighter types (F-15, F-22), and numerous other extremely high
price tag manned vehicles, but have yet to develop and field a single,
dedicated, military, reusable, launch vehicle or space vehicle.

For starters, the AFSPC plan I posted essentially says
to take the technology of the two scale demonstrators and use
them in the next step, a full scale military space plane. And
the plan was clear they thought the X-37 was the better of the
two. And here we see the X-37b is about to launch. So it's
rather logical to assume that 'plan' is proceeding just as
it's written.

Else why bother with the X-37b???

The US military invests in *a lot* of low level (i.e. relatively cheap)
technology development programs. But it doesn't necessarily mean that
operational (i.e. extremely expensive) systems are "coming soon". Come back
to me when there is a commmittment to develop and field an operational
system.

So I conclude this country is still trying to build the next
generation of space plane. Something that will help
fullfill the long sought promise of low cost to orbit.

But post 9/11, it's also clear such a capability is a the
next military high ground. Just as the first jet, the sound
barrier and the fastest have always been military secrets.
A space plane should be a highly guarded secret also.

And having the Pentagon and NASA continue to
share a black budget project to completion doesn't
really make any sense.

You're missing the obvious. Many at NASA doesn't care about this technology
either. Witness the tens of billions of dollars in planned investment to
create a "shuttle derived" launch vehicle to maintain the status-quo. This
line of research was dropped from NASA because there wasn't a concensus
within NASA that this technology was worth developing.

If the US military really is *very* interested in these sorts of
technologies, why don't we see them spending the money to make them a
reality? The answer is they're interested, but not *that* interested.


How can we know how much the Pentagon is spending, or at
what level their latest technology has achieved? If it's a military
capability, we're not going to get any real details.

I call b.s. You can't keep launch vehicles hidden that easily. Unless the
military has invented *several* new cloaking technologies for launch
vehicles (visual, thermal, acoustic, radar, and etc.), every amateur
launch/satellite tracker on the planet would know about the program the
first time it was launched into orbit.

What's next out of you, evidence of alien built flying saucers secretly
operated by the military? Come back later when you have real evidence of
*significant* levels of funding going into reusable launch technologies.
All I see are a few programs which are funded at a very low level,
especially by DOD standards.

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson