Mrk 205 in Draco .... who is right?

Dear Friends,

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you to
http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm .

Clear skies!

Anthony.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:16:23 +0300, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you to
http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm .

Nice shot, Anthony. However, I'd disagree that there's much in the way
of controversy surrounding this object. Basically, you've got a lot of
independent evidence that Mrk 205 and NGC 4319 are unrelated, and then
you've got the beliefs of Halton Arp (is that who you mean when you say
Harold Harp on your page?). Arp has a number of ideas that have largely
marginalized him from the rest of the astronomical community; very few
astronomers take him seriously anymore. Sadly, he's become a
pseudoscientist (in this case, somebody who refuses to give up a theory
when it is no longer supported by any evidence).

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Anthony Ayiomamitis wrote:
Dear Friends,

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you to
http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm .

Nice image.

A few things: it's Halton Arp, not Harold. Markarian 205 isn't
technically a quasar, but a Seyfert galaxy. In the old days it wasn't
understood that what we were seeing is the bright central portion of a
galaxy in all cases. So quasars, Seyfert galaxies, and various other
classes are all basically the same phenomenon seen at different distances.

The image on the creationist web site that you point people to is far
from compelling. Today we understand quasars not as true point sources
so the overlap in signal from these two objects can easily account for
the "bridge". Even though Arp and Burbidge cling to their notions (at
least the last time I paid any attention) they are far from accepted in
the astronomical community. In fact, they appear rather like kooks:
ignoring the majority of the evidence, over-interpreting what little
evidence they can cite, embracing extremely questionable statistical
methods, accusing their colleagues of being narrow minded and biased to
the point of claiming discrimination, and perhaps most of all, revealing
a total lack of hubris in their strongly held but poorly supported
beliefs. In short, it's bad science. In fact, all these traits are
hallmarks of pseudoscience. Although out of respect, few astronomers
appear willing to come out and say that (at least publicly). I recall
attending a presentation by Burbidge some time ago; there were many
professional astronomers in attendance and looking around the room I saw
lots of heads shaking in disbelief.

The British culture of the "eccentric scientist" is rather fascinating
to me. There is a tendency to elevate those with highly creative ideas
in a way that we usually don't see in North America. I'm not going to
say that's necessarily a bad thing, and it is rather entertaining. To
me it is an interesting (albeit puzzling) cultural phenomenon.

Clear skies,
Greg

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply take out your eye

Greg Crinklaw wrote:
...a total lack of hubris

I of course meant total lack of humility.

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply take out your eye

Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:16:23 +0300, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:


One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you to
http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm .



Hi Chris,

Nice shot, Anthony. However, I'd disagree that there's much in the way
of controversy surrounding this object. Basically, you've got a lot of
independent evidence that Mrk 205 and NGC 4319 are unrelated, and then
you've got the beliefs of Halton Arp (is that who you mean when you say
Harold Harp on your page?). Arp has a number of ideas that have largely
marginalized him from the rest of the astronomical community; very few
astronomers take him seriously anymore. Sadly, he's become a
pseudoscientist (in this case, somebody who refuses to give up a theory
when it is no longer supported by any evidence).

I will change the text with an emphasis on the two objects being
independent and then add a passing comment about Arp's notion that they
are related.

Thanks to you and Greg for the input, clarifications and corrections!

Anthony.


_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Greg Crinklaw wrote:
The British culture of the "eccentric scientist" is rather fascinating
to me. There is a tendency to elevate those with highly creative ideas
in a way that we usually don't see in North America. I'm not going to
say that's necessarily a bad thing, and it is rather entertaining. To
me it is an interesting (albeit puzzling) cultural phenomenon.

Oops. I looked up Arp to see what he was up to these days and was
surprised to discover that I was mistaken. For some reason I thought
that he was either British or working in the UK. I'm still fascinated
by the "eccentric scientist" thing though. :-)

Clear skies,
Greg

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply take out your eye

On Apr 12, 10:16 am, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:
Dear Friends,

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you tohttp://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm.

Clear skies!

Anthony.

Antoni,

An elegant presentation of a thorny problem. Your
image is outstanding as usual. I've been trying to keep
up with this ongoing situation which has earned Arp the
reputation as the `enfant terrible' of the astronmical
community.

Thanks for the post.

Ben

Ben wrote:
On Apr 12, 10:16 am, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:

Dear Friends,

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you tohttp://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm.

Clear skies!

Anthony.


Antoni,

Hi Ben,


An elegant presentation of a thorny problem. Your
image is outstanding as usual.

Glad you like the image!

I've been trying to keep
up with this ongoing situation which has earned Arp the
reputation as the `enfant terrible' of the astronmical
community.

Actually I am not done with Halton Arp, for I am eager to start a new
project surrounding his catalogue of 300+ peculiar galaxies starting
this week with M101 (Arp 26).


Thanks for the post.

Thanks for the feedback.

Anthony.


Ben

On Apr 12, 5:16 pm, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:
Dear Friends,

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you tohttp://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm.

Clear skies!

Anthony.

Dear friends

How does the analemma look like at the Equator where there is a
constant symmetry between daylight/darkness.

Tell me all about the axial tilting Earth and how a photographer can
pass himself off as an astronomer -

http://photomas.net/pages/appayiomamitis.htm

BTW, the analemma is a silly 17th century attempt to describe the
Earth's motions using a clock and especially the pseudo-dynamic of
variable axial tilt.When you see an 'analemma' you are looking at an
act of vandalism that wrecks havoc with the Equation of Time noon
correction which represents the same longitudinal position of the Sun
crossing a meridian.In short,there is no figure 8.

oriel36 wrote:

On Apr 12, 5:16 pm, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:

Dear Friends,

One of the most celebrated quasars is Markarian 205, a fairly bright
quasar in Draco (mag 15.24), which has led to an interesting controversy
the past few years as to whether it is related to NGC 4319 in the
immediate vicinity or not. The dramatic difference between the redshifts
of these two "players" (z=0.07 vs z=0.006) has led to conflicting
interpretations of the redshift and whether it can be used as an
indicator of distance or not.

For an image based on 30 minutes total exposure, I kindly direct you tohttp://www.perseus.gr/Astro-DSO-QSO-Mrk205.htm.

Clear skies!

Anthony.


Dear friends

You have friends? Nice one ... thanks for the laugh!

Anthony.