Moon Base baby steps

Two interesting quotes from Prez. Bush's speech:
"We will begin the effort quickly, using existing programs and
personnel.... We'll make steady progress, one mission, one voyage, one
landing at a time."

Assuming an incremental approach, even if the grand program (new
vehicle and eventual Mars landing) falls by the wayside, what small,
initial steps can be taken before political momentum fades?

I suggest we:
1) Use an existing rover design, tweaked slightly to allow
teleoperation from Earth;
2) Design a lander to take the rover from lunar orbit to the lunar
surface, maybe a solid rocket motor to slow it down and an airbag
system for actual landing;
3) launch it on a Delta II;
4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube
sites. A simple and inexpensive inflatable structure can be quickly
set up later in a lava tube since the structure will only have to
retain air pressure, while the lava tube itslf will provide meteor,
radiation, and thermal protection. See
http://www.halien.com/TAS/Gallery/apollo/ for a nice picture of
Aristarchus crater (at lower right). Notice the rille/valley to the
left of the 25 mile diameter crater with the possible remaining intact
section of lava tube;
5) Use a similar rover (one with the spectrometer capability of the
Mars Rover) at the lunar poles to search for ice/hydrated minerals.

Any reason this couldn't be done within a year or two? Then, even if
Bush's particular iteration of the perennial Moon-Mars Vision falters,
we'd at least have useful data to plan the next iteration.

(Bill Bogen) wrote in message . com...
...
4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube
sites. A simple and inexpensive inflatable structure can be quickly
set up later in a lava tube since the structure will only have to
retain air pressure, while the lava tube itslf will provide meteor,
radiation, and thermal protection.

I agree that lava tubes could make a huge difference for the viability
of a lunar base. Our ancestors took shelter in caves. There's no
reason why we shouldn't have lunar cavemen. But finding such lava
tubes could be tricky. A rover has very limited range and speed. You
have to scout for likely sites first.

Here's a proposed mission for this: a lunar orbiter to take multiple
images of the same locations at different sun angles for computer
analysis. I am talking about sub-meter resolution: low lunar orbit,
high resolution cameras. At such resolutions global coverage is
probably not practical, just a big sample. This scout should be in a
synchronized orbit that covers certain narrow stripes again and again
and then slowly drifting to cover new terrain after these stripes have
been mapped at multiple sun angles and viewing angles. The search
could be a feedback process: after image processing reveals intresting
spots at low resolution the a target schedule would be uploaded to the
orbiter for higher resolution scans.

The image processing would look for anomalous shadow patterns -
negative angles, overhangs or anything else that registers as an
anomaly on a parametric prediction model. Hopefully it would find lava
tubes but it's sure to produce images of exciting lunar landscapes
with high PR and perhaps even commercial value. This kind of orbiter
should be relatively inexpensive but it would require a downlink pipe
fatter than usual.

Oren

In sci.space.tech Bill Bogen wrote:
Two interesting quotes from Prez. Bush's speech:
"We will begin the effort quickly, using existing programs and
personnel.... We'll make steady progress, one mission, one voyage, one
landing at a time."

Assuming an incremental approach, even if the grand program (new
vehicle and eventual Mars landing) falls by the wayside, what small,
initial steps can be taken before political momentum fades?

Several 50m or so contracts for developing a cheap expendable?
$10K/lb really, really limits things.
Spend ten billion on space, and you might get 300 tonnes launched, being
quite optimistic.

Drop launch costs tenfold by investing in new launch vehicles, and
you might get 3000 tonnes for the same money.

Oren Tirosh wrote:
(Bill Bogen) wrote in message . com...
..

4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube
sites. A simple and inexpensive inflatable structure can be quickly
set up later in a lava tube since the structure will only have to
retain air pressure, while the lava tube itslf will provide meteor,
radiation, and thermal protection.


I agree that lava tubes could make a huge difference for the viability
of a lunar base. Our ancestors took shelter in caves. There's no
reason why we shouldn't have lunar cavemen. But finding such lava
tubes could be tricky. A rover has very limited range and speed. You
have to scout for likely sites first.




You can always dig a hole. The big enabler would be water resources.
That will drive site selection and tech development.

Maybe we can just drop a giant balloon on the Moon and call it the day. It
would certainly look impressive. What the point of building a real lunar
base when we have yet tackle problems like supply and crew rotation? Using
existing programs and personnel this country will go backrupt maintaining a
presence on the Moon.

Uzytkownik "Bill Bogen" napisal w wiadomosci
om...
Two interesting quotes from Prez. Bush's speech:
"We will begin the effort quickly, using existing programs and
personnel.... We'll make steady progress, one mission, one voyage, one
landing at a time."

Assuming an incremental approach, even if the grand program (new
vehicle and eventual Mars landing) falls by the wayside, what small,
initial steps can be taken before political momentum fades?

I suggest we:
1) Use an existing rover design, tweaked slightly to allow
teleoperation from Earth;
2) Design a lander to take the rover from lunar orbit to the lunar
surface, maybe a solid rocket motor to slow it down and an airbag
system for actual landing;
3) launch it on a Delta II;
4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube
sites. A simple and inexpensive inflatable structure can be quickly
set up later in a lava tube since the structure will only have to
retain air pressure, while the lava tube itslf will provide meteor,
radiation, and thermal protection. See
http://www.halien.com/TAS/Gallery/apollo/ for a nice picture of
Aristarchus crater (at lower right). Notice the rille/valley to the
left of the 25 mile diameter crater with the possible remaining intact
section of lava tube;
5) Use a similar rover (one with the spectrometer capability of the
Mars Rover) at the lunar poles to search for ice/hydrated minerals.

Any reason this couldn't be done within a year or two? Then, even if
Bush's particular iteration of the perennial Moon-Mars Vision falters,
we'd at least have useful data to plan the next iteration.

(Bill Bogen) wrote:
4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube sites.

In addition to the rovers and the orbital imaging solutions,
the cluster-bomb/ping-pong ball camera idea should also be considered.
What is the smallest useful lander/sensor system we can build?
Even if the landings are hard, perhaps the pictures they send back just
landing will be useful. Also, are there clever ways of landing
a ping-pong ball on the moon (or Mars) that we can't consider
for larger payloads? Or maybe just mini-retro rockets.
Maybe we can soft land a lander that then contains an arsenal
of ping-pong sensors that it fires in various directions.

Just some thoughts.

- Cris Fitch
San Diego, CA
http://www.orbit6.com/
http://www.orbit6.com/tform/moon.htm

"Ool" writes:

I'd be surprised if an airbag system would do a lot of good. Since
there's no air you can't use any aero-braking methods to slow down,
so, unlike the Mars probes, Moon probes would have to stand on top of
a descent stage rocket anyway, rather than hang from a parachute. If
such a rocket can slow the probe down enough for airbags to work, it
could slow it down enough for a simple soft touchdown, too, I bet.

I may be wrong, but I don't think airbags would be practical on the
Moon. They'd be much heavier than the extra fuel for a soft landing.

Maybe, but I don't buy your reasoning. The purpose of the bags is not
to slow the craft down for landing. However that is done, it is
supposed to leave the bagged craft at near-zero velocity, just above
the surface. They can save money by building a lousy system that
can't be trusted to leave it very close, so they design it to stop
many meters above the surface and hope it stops somewhere between the
surface and too high for the bags to work. The main reason for the
bags is so the craft doesn't have to be capable (and expensive) enough
to guide itself to a good landing and settle down on its legs on
good-enough ground. Bag landers don't have to worry about moving
sideways to avoid hills, cliffs, big rocks, etc.

But many missions can't put up with the limitations of bags even now,
despite the cost savings. And as rocket landing systems get more
modular and mass-produced, the cost difference will decrease.

Assuming an incremental approach, even if the grand program (new
vehicle and eventual Mars landing) falls by the wayside, what small,
initial steps can be taken before political momentum fades?
Access to the ISS. That means an Orbital Spce Plane will get developed and
that's about it. The real answer to CATS, Cheap Access To Space, is some sort
of assisted launch, most likely a flyback booster and that's too expensive of a
space commitment for Baby Bush {who's getting the boot in Nov}.
^
//^\\
~~~ near space elevator ~~~~
~~~members.aol.com/beanstalkr/~~~

(Oren Tirosh) wrote in message . com...
(Bill Bogen) wrote in message . com...
..
4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube
sites. A simple and inexpensive inflatable structure can be quickly
set up later in a lava tube since the structure will only have to
retain air pressure, while the lava tube itslf will provide meteor,
radiation, and thermal protection.

I agree that lava tubes could make a huge difference for the viability
of a lunar base. Our ancestors took shelter in caves. There's no
reason why we shouldn't have lunar cavemen. But finding such lava
tubes could be tricky. A rover has very limited range and speed. You
have to scout for likely sites first.

We already have lots of orbital photos (from the Apollo missions) of
likely spots; see the Aristarchus photo I mentioned earlier.
Communication might be the tricky part; once the rover is in a lava
tube, its transmissions to Earth or to its lander-half could be
blocked, making teleoperation tricky. Perhaps the rover (Theseus)
could unwind an optical fiber from the lander (Ariadne) as it wends
its way into the labyrinth of the lava tube.

Charles Buckley wrote in message ...
Oren Tirosh wrote:
(Bill Bogen) wrote in message . com...
..

4) Once on the Moon, use the rover to explore possible lava tube
sites. A simple and inexpensive inflatable structure can be quickly
set up later in a lava tube since the structure will only have to
retain air pressure, while the lava tube itslf will provide meteor,
radiation, and thermal protection.


I agree that lava tubes could make a huge difference for the viability
of a lunar base. Our ancestors took shelter in caves. There's no
reason why we shouldn't have lunar cavemen. But finding such lava
tubes could be tricky. A rover has very limited range and speed. You
have to scout for likely sites first.




You can always dig a hole.

How, exactly? A low cost mission won't include a massive backhoe.
Explosives? We'd still have to move lots of rubble. By hand, with a
shovel while wearing a pressure suit? Much better to set up a roomy,
inflatable permanent base quickly in a lava tube, even if we have to
drive/send rovers 100s of kms to interesting sites.

The big enabler would be water resources.
That will drive site selection and tech development.

Another post states that the interior of lava tubes is probably at a
constant -21 degrees C. Comet impacts on the Moon could well have
flung some ice/water vapor down a lava tube where it condensed. This
is one resource our rover could look for. For a technical reference,
see 'The Adventures of Tin Tin: Destination Moon' by Herge.