Cheap, easy to handle fuels/oxidizers

John Cramer's latest breakthru is adding an alcohol to 50% peroxide to make a
cheap, easy to handle, easy to buy mono-propellant for his rockets.

Does anyone know more about this combination or other cheap fuel
combinations? Notice I don't consider LOX to be cheap. In large bulk quanties
it may be, but for small amounts the handling equipment costs alot. (Frozen
valves anybody?)

I remember there was an oxidizer made by dissolving a solid oxidizer in
water, what happened to that?

Also there was a hybrid rocket that had a catalyst (in? part of? was the?)
fuel so all you did was open/close the valve for peroxide and it
auto-started. You got the simple design of a mono-propellant engine but the
performance of a hybrid, not to mention a very high DensityISP. Has there
been any more developent on that?

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

John Cramer's latest breakthru is adding an alcohol to 50% peroxide to
make a cheap, easy to handle, easy to buy mono-propellant for his rockets.

Does anyone know more about this combination or other cheap fuel
combinations? Notice I don't consider LOX to be cheap. In large bulk
quanties it may be, but for small amounts the handling equipment costs
alot. (Frozen valves anybody?)

I remember there was an oxidizer made by dissolving a solid oxidizer in
water, what happened to that?

Also there was a hybrid rocket that had a catalyst (in? part of? was the?)
fuel so all you did was open/close the valve for peroxide and it
auto-started. You got the simple design of a mono-propellant engine but
the performance of a hybrid, not to mention a very high DensityISP. Has
there been any more developent on that?




In URL http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/H2O2CONF/PStokes.htm


"Another fatality now occurred when a trial was undertaken by a Dr. Wahmke
in attempting to pre-mix hydrogen peroxide and alcohol upstream of the
chamber. The intention had been use as a 'monergol' propellant, combining
oxidant and fuel, but it resulted in a feed tank detonation. "


I guess John knows how to do it better than Dr Wahmke.

Craig Fink

Craig Fink :

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

John Cramer's latest breakthru is adding an alcohol to 50% peroxide to
make a cheap, easy to handle, easy to buy mono-propellant for his
rockets.

Does anyone know more about this combination or other cheap fuel
combinations? Notice I don't consider LOX to be cheap. In large bulk
quanties it may be, but for small amounts the handling equipment costs
alot. (Frozen valves anybody?)

I remember there was an oxidizer made by dissolving a solid oxidizer in
water, what happened to that?

Also there was a hybrid rocket that had a catalyst (in? part of? was
the?)
fuel so all you did was open/close the valve for peroxide and it
auto-started. You got the simple design of a mono-propellant engine but
the performance of a hybrid, not to mention a very high DensityISP. Has
there been any more developent on that?




In URL http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/H2O2CONF/PStokes.htm


"Another fatality now occurred when a trial was undertaken by a Dr. Wahmke
in attempting to pre-mix hydrogen peroxide and alcohol upstream of the
chamber. The intention had been use as a 'monergol' propellant, combining
oxidant and fuel, but it resulted in a feed tank detonation. "


I guess John knows how to do it better than Dr Wahmke.

Craig Fink

One thing that matters is the percentages, mix 3 percent peroxide with any
amount of fuel and it will not explode there is just too much water. Mix 8
units of 99% peroxide with 1 unit of 99% alcohol and you will an explosive
you will not dare sneezing in the same room.

John is using 40% and 50% peroxide with very little alcohol. He so far has
not had any problems. And while this mix and more powerful version of it
interest me, that is not what I am asking.

50% peroxide is cheap and has relatively few regulations about it's handling
or shipping. High purity alcohols that can not be drunk also are cheap and
easy to handle/ship.

What I am asking is "Are there any other combinations out there that are
cheap, easy to handle and ship, have few regulations controlling them?"

Earl Colby Pottinger

PS. Because of a string of Hot-Rodding accidents police are crarking down on
Nitrous Oxide suppliers.

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

Craig Fink :

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

John Cramer's latest breakthru is adding an alcohol to 50% peroxide to
make a cheap, easy to handle, easy to buy mono-propellant for his
rockets.

Does anyone know more about this combination or other cheap fuel
combinations? Notice I don't consider LOX to be cheap. In large bulk
quanties it may be, but for small amounts the handling equipment costs
alot. (Frozen valves anybody?)

I remember there was an oxidizer made by dissolving a solid oxidizer in
water, what happened to that?

Also there was a hybrid rocket that had a catalyst (in? part of? was
the?)
fuel so all you did was open/close the valve for peroxide and it
auto-started. You got the simple design of a mono-propellant engine but
the performance of a hybrid, not to mention a very high DensityISP. Has
there been any more developent on that?




In URL http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/H2O2CONF/PStokes.htm


"Another fatality now occurred when a trial was undertaken by a Dr.
Wahmke in attempting to pre-mix hydrogen peroxide and alcohol upstream of
the chamber. The intention had been use as a 'monergol' propellant,
combining oxidant and fuel, but it resulted in a feed tank detonation. "


I guess John knows how to do it better than Dr Wahmke.

Craig Fink

One thing that matters is the percentages, mix 3 percent peroxide with any
amount of fuel and it will not explode there is just too much water. Mix
8 units of 99% peroxide with 1 unit of 99% alcohol and you will an
explosive you will not dare sneezing in the same room.

John is using 40% and 50% peroxide with very little alcohol. He so far
has
not had any problems. And while this mix and more powerful version of it
interest me, that is not what I am asking.

50% peroxide is cheap and has relatively few regulations about it's
handling
or shipping. High purity alcohols that can not be drunk also are cheap
and easy to handle/ship.

What I am asking is "Are there any other combinations out there that are
cheap, easy to handle and ship, have few regulations controlling them?"


Yeah, I agree, the difference being that water is the moderator that
reduces it's explosive potential. Sounds like someone needs to do a study
to see where the limits are, so that you won't step over the line like Dr
Wahmke. Hydrogen peroxide seems to be one of the most useful and studied
molecules around. I wouldn't be suprised if someone hasn't already done
such a simple study to figure out where the limits are.

It really sounds like a great monopropellent, potentially very safe and
environmentally friendly (green) too. Clean up with plenty of water.

Craig Fink

Earl Colby Pottinger writes:

What I am asking is "Are there any other combinations out there that are
cheap, easy to handle and ship, have few regulations controlling them?"

You can be darned sure that under the current regime, those regulations
will be changed the moment the "Dept. of Homeland Security" gets even a
_hint_ that concocting rocket-fuel even _might_ be possible using them,
or the moment the "Nanny State" favored by the alternate tyranny hears
that someone has blown their fingers off playing with it. (Note that
"Homeland Security" is =ALREADY= trying to crack down on model rocketry !!!)


PS. Because of a string of Hot-Rodding accidents police are crarking down
on Nitrous Oxide suppliers.

The same will happen if there are a string of amateur or professional
rocketry accidents.


-- Gordon D. Pusch

perl -e '$_ = \n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'

Gordon D. Pusch wrote:
Earl Colby Pottinger writes:

What I am asking is "Are there any other combinations out there that are
cheap, easy to handle and ship, have few regulations controlling them?"

You can be darned sure that under the current regime, those regulations
will be changed the moment the "Dept. of Homeland Security" gets even a
_hint_ that concocting rocket-fuel even _might_ be possible using them,
or the moment the "Nanny State" favored by the alternate tyranny hears
that someone has blown their fingers off playing with it. (Note that
"Homeland Security" is =ALREADY= trying to crack down on model rocketry !!!)


PS. Because of a string of Hot-Rodding accidents police are crarking down
on Nitrous Oxide suppliers.

The same will happen if there are a string of amateur or professional
rocketry accidents.


Well, large agribusiness and ready availability of fertiliser are sort of
dependennt on each other, so its not likely fertiliser would stop being
easily available, nop matter how many times it was used in bombs...


-- Gordon D. Pusch

perl -e '$_ = \n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

Sander Vesik writes:

Gordon D. Pusch wrote:
Earl Colby Pottinger writes:

What I am asking is "Are there any other combinations out there that are
cheap, easy to handle and ship, have few regulations controlling them?"

You can be darned sure that under the current regime, those regulations
will be changed the moment the "Dept. of Homeland Security" gets even a
_hint_ that concocting rocket-fuel even _might_ be possible using them,
or the moment the "Nanny State" favored by the alternate tyranny hears
that someone has blown their fingers off playing with it. (Note that
"Homeland Security" is =ALREADY= trying to crack down on model rocketry !!!)

PS. Because of a string of Hot-Rodding accidents police are crarking down
on Nitrous Oxide suppliers.

The same will happen if there are a string of amateur or professional
rocketry accidents.


Well, large agribusiness and ready availability of fertiliser are sort of
dependennt on each other, so its not likely fertiliser would stop being
easily available, nop matter how many times it was used in bombs...


Only certain types of fertilizer are suitable for amateur bomb-making,
and only very specialized sorts of agriculture depend on those specific
types of fertilizer.

You cannot, for example, pull up to an ag supply shop in Northern Ireland
and buy a truckload of straight ammonium nitrate. Not any more. OKC
wasn't enough to justify a similar regime here, but half a dozen repeats
probably would.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
* for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

Sander Vesik wrote:

...

Well, large agribusiness and ready availability of fertiliser are sort of
dependennt on each other, so its not likely fertiliser would stop being
easily available, nop matter how many times it was used in bombs...

Few fertilizers, aside from the obvious ammonium nitrate, are much good for
bomb making. NH4NO3 is a particulatly efficient and convenient way to
deliver nitrogen, but it's certainly not the only one. If its distribution
were stopped, people might complain, but life would go on with little
disruption.

Although it's possible to make explosives from other fertilizers, I doubt
it would generally be worth the hassle.

/kenw
Ken Wallewein
Calgary, Alberta

www.kmsi.net

Sander Vesik writes:

Gordon D. Pusch wrote:
Earl Colby Pottinger writes:

What I am asking is "Are there any other combinations out there that are
cheap, easy to handle and ship, have few regulations controlling them?"

You can be darned sure that under the current regime, those regulations
will be changed the moment the "Dept. of Homeland Security" gets even a
_hint_ that concocting rocket-fuel even _might_ be possible using them,
or the moment the "Nanny State" favored by the alternate tyranny hears
that someone has blown their fingers off playing with it. (Note that
"Homeland Security" is =ALREADY= trying to crack down on model rocketry !!!)


PS. Because of a string of Hot-Rodding accidents police are crarking down
on Nitrous Oxide suppliers.

The same will happen if there are a string of amateur or professional
rocketry accidents.

Well, large agribusiness and ready availability of fertiliser are sort of
dependennt on each other, so its not likely fertiliser would stop being
easily available, nop matter how many times it was used in bombs...

....However, after the Oklahoma city bombing, if you purchase a large amount
of nitrate fertilizer, unless you _do_ happen to be either a farmer or a
fertilizer dealer, you will be put under close FBI scrutiny to see if
you happen to have _also_ purchased a large amount of diesel fuel.
IMO, unless there is a constitutional or public backlash, it is only a
matter of time before one will need to have a permit or license to buy
nitrate fertilizer, diesel fuel, or other such "terrorist paraphernalia"...


-- Gordon D. Pusch

perl -e '$_ = \n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'

(Henry Spencer) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:
John [Carmack]'s latest breakthru is adding an alcohol to 50% peroxide to
make a cheap, easy to handle, easy to buy mono-propellant for his rockets.

Well, not a breakthrough exactly -- it's an old idea, used in applications
like torpedo propulsion -- but it has been largely forgotten in rocketry.

Does anyone know more about this combination or other cheap fuel
combinations?

The tricky part, really, is the oxidizer. Fuels are generally cheap and
straightforward. There are about four reasonable choices of oxidizer --
LOX, peroxide, N2O, and WFNA -- each with its own set of disadvantages.
LOX and peroxide both require meticulous cleanliness, LOX is cryogenic,
high-grade peroxide is costly and hard to get, N2O requires high pressure,
WFNA is highly corrosive.

If you are talking about a professional project,
cryogenic and cleanliness problems should be
maageable. IMO, the obvious choice is LOX.

Best regards,
Len (Cormier)
PanAero, Inc. and Third Millennium Aerospace, Inc.
( http://www.tour2space.com )