How fast?

I was trying to find out how fast I am travelling when I stand still.

I discovered:
Earth rotation is 1000 mph at equator(0.3 miles/s)
Earth moves round sun 18.5 m/s (66,000 mph)
Sun moves round galaxy 155 m/s galaxy
Galaxy moves wrt local cluster 185 m/s.

But couldn't find out what the various directions are. What I need to
know still a
1. At what time of year do we move round the sun in the 'same'
direction as the sun is moving round the galaxy; and what is the angle
between thes motions?
2. What is the angle between the motion round galaxy, and the motion
wrt local cluster.

Anyone know where I can find this?
--
Laury

Wasn't it Laury who wrote:
I was trying to find out how fast I am travelling when I stand still.

I discovered:
Earth rotation is 1000 mph at equator(0.3 miles/s)
Earth moves round sun 18.5 m/s (66,000 mph)
Sun moves round galaxy 155 m/s galaxy
Galaxy moves wrt local cluster 185 m/s.

But couldn't find out what the various directions are. What I need to
know still a
1. At what time of year do we move round the sun in the 'same'
direction as the sun is moving round the galaxy; and what is the angle
between thes motions?
2. What is the angle between the motion round galaxy, and the motion
wrt local cluster.

Anyone know where I can find this?

A different way to find out how fast you're travelling when standing
still is to measure the Doppler effect caused by your motion on the
frequency of the cosmic background radiation.

At present that gives an average speed of about 371 km/sec. That figure
will include the motion of the solar system around the galaxy and the
overall motion of the galaxy, but it won't include the Earth's orbital
motion or rotation. Unfortunately, I can's seem to find any info about
the direction, other than that the direction was first calculated by
observations made from the Bracewell radio telescope at Stanford.

--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

The Solar System as a whole is moving toward to the Hercules-Lyra border,
near the direction of Vega. As Vega is in the sequence of Earth's pole stars
it is some 67 degrees from the ecliptic and so Earth's orbital movement is
never directly toward it but is rather a skew helix. Earth's fastest
movement within the galaxy will be when it is movement around the Sun is
toward the Sagittarius-Ophiuchus border, which is due south of the area.
Movement around the Sun is always toward whatever part of the zodiac is due
south/due north/overhead at 6 in the morning.


"Laury" wrote in message
...
I was trying to find out how fast I am travelling when I stand still.

I discovered:
Earth rotation is 1000 mph at equator(0.3 miles/s)
Earth moves round sun 18.5 m/s (66,000 mph)
Sun moves round galaxy 155 m/s galaxy
Galaxy moves wrt local cluster 185 m/s.

But couldn't find out what the various directions are. What I need to
know still a
1. At what time of year do we move round the sun in the 'same'
direction as the sun is moving round the galaxy; and what is the angle
between these motions?
2. What is the angle between the motion round galaxy, and the motion
wrt local cluster.

Anyone know where I can find this?
--
Laury

First things first.

Get rid of axial rotation just as the Copernican astronomers ignored
the rotation of Earth when working with heliocentric orbital motion.The
Ra/Dec optical astronomers retain axial rotation and the celestial
sphere hence explanations involving the solar system's motion towards
constellations which are riduculous and counterproductive).

Start working with changing orbital orientation due to the heliocentric
orbital motion of the Earth,this change is reflected in the arrows at
90 degrees to the Sun/Earth line -

http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronom...ages/04f15.jpg

If heliocentric orbital motion or the Keplerian variation in orbital
speed is conditioned by the solar system's galactic orbital motion then
around Sept as the Earth travels in the same direction as the solar
system's galactic orbital motion,at dawn as terrestial axial longitudes
align with orbital orientation,the heliocentric orientation can then be
isolated against the galactic orientation.

You will not get a correct answer among people here or anywhere on the
internet insofar as they use a calendrically driven celestial sphere
where the Earth's axial and orbital orientation share a common axis. It
is not a put down,it is just the system they consider convenient for
Ra/Dec is hopeless for comparing changes in orientations which are
central to your observations and your questions.

"oriel36" wrote in message
ups.com...
| First things first.
|
| Get rid of axial rotation just as the Copernican astronomers ignored
| the rotation of Earth when working with heliocentric orbital
motion.The
| Ra/Dec optical astronomers retain axial rotation and the celestial
| sphere hence explanations involving the solar system's motion towards
| constellations which are riduculous and counterproductive).
|
| Start working with changing orbital orientation due to the
heliocentric
| orbital motion of the Earth,this change is reflected in the arrows at
| 90 degrees to the Sun/Earth line -
|
| http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronom...ages/04f15.jpg
|
| If heliocentric orbital motion or the Keplerian variation in orbital
| speed is conditioned by the solar system's galactic orbital motion
then
| around Sept as the Earth travels in the same direction as the solar
| system's galactic orbital motion,at dawn as terrestial axial
longitudes
| align with orbital orientation,the heliocentric orientation can then
be
| isolated against the galactic orientation.
|
| You will not get a correct answer among people here or anywhere on the
| internet insofar as they use a calendrically driven celestial sphere
| where the Earth's axial and orbital orientation share a common axis.
It
| is not a put down,it is just the system they consider convenient for
| Ra/Dec is hopeless for comparing changes in orientations which are
| central to your observations and your questions.

Thanks for that explanation. It'll take a bit of pondering to work all
that out. I'd forgotten about the variations due to the Earth's orbit's
ellipticity, although they are fortunately quite small.

My biggest concern was to find the angles between the various velocity
components because knowing speed alone is not enough.

(tongue in cheek: assuming you've given a correct answer)
--
Laury

"Mike Williams" wrote in message
...
| Wasn't it Laury who wrote:
| I was trying to find out how fast I am travelling when I stand
still.
|
| I discovered:
| Earth rotation is 1000 mph at equator(0.3 miles/s)
| Earth moves round sun 18.5 m/s (66,000 mph)
| Sun moves round galaxy 155 m/s galaxy
| Galaxy moves wrt local cluster 185 m/s.
|
| But couldn't find out what the various directions are. What I need
to
| know still a
| 1. At what time of year do we move round the sun in the 'same'
| direction as the sun is moving round the galaxy; and what is the
angle
| between thes motions?
| 2. What is the angle between the motion round galaxy, and the motion
| wrt local cluster.
|
| Anyone know where I can find this?
|
| A different way to find out how fast you're travelling when standing
| still is to measure the Doppler effect caused by your motion on the
| frequency of the cosmic background radiation.
|
| At present that gives an average speed of about 371 km/sec. That
figure
| will include the motion of the solar system around the galaxy and the
| overall motion of the galaxy, but it won't include the Earth's orbital
| motion or rotation. Unfortunately, I can's seem to find any info about
| the direction, other than that the direction was first calculated by
| observations made from the Bracewell radio telescope at Stanford.

Thanks, that's useful because my next question might well have been
'anyone know how fast the local cluster is moving?' And so on ad
infinitum.

So it looks like I can use 371km/s (220ish miles/sec) plus/minus earth
rotation & orbit figures, modified by the 67 degs which Charles
supplied.


--
Laury

"Charles Gilman" wrote in message
...
| The Solar System as a whole is moving toward to the Hercules-Lyra
border,
| near the direction of Vega. As Vega is in the sequence of Earth's pole
stars
| it is some 67 degrees from the ecliptic and so Earth's orbital
movement is
| never directly toward it but is rather a skew helix. Earth's fastest
| movement within the galaxy will be when it is movement around the Sun
is
| toward the Sagittarius-Ophiuchus border, which is due south of the
area.
| Movement around the Sun is always toward whatever part of the zodiac
is due
| south/due north/overhead at 6 in the morning.
|
|
| "Laury" wrote in message
| ...
| I was trying to find out how fast I am travelling when I stand
still.
|
| I discovered:
| Earth rotation is 1000 mph at equator(0.3 miles/s)
| Earth moves round sun 18.5 m/s (66,000 mph)
| Sun moves round galaxy 155 m/s galaxy
| Galaxy moves wrt local cluster 185 m/s.
|
| But couldn't find out what the various directions are. What I need
to
| know still a
| 1. At what time of year do we move round the sun in the 'same'
| direction as the sun is moving round the galaxy; and what is the
angle
| between these motions?
| 2. What is the angle between the motion round galaxy, and the
motion
| wrt local cluster.

Thanks. That 67 deg angle was a surprise. I'm going to have to make a
3d model to understand the full picture, but combined with Mike's figure
for speed wrt background radiation, I'm getting closer.
--
Laury

Laury

This type of astronomy requires that you immerse yourself in the
various motions and orientations otherwise it is a waste of time.Both
the Ptolemaics geocentrists and the Copernican heliocentrists were
working off planetary orbital motions in isolation from the background
stars,the difference is that heliocentrists swap the position of the
Sun and the Earth and attribute two seperate motions to the Earth -
axial and orbital motion.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

You can see how the Ptrolemaics reasoned periodic looping motions seen
from a satationary Earth and the dramatic and correct Copernican
interpretation of a faster Earth taking an inner orbital circuit to the
slower moving outer planets.

17th century optical astronomers and Newtonian theorists destroyed
this exquisite reasoning by retaining the stellar background and the
plotted retrogrades and jumping to the Sun to explain planetary motion
using a calendrically based justification involving a common axis for
axial and orbital motion -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct.." Isaac Newton

Unknown or rather misjudged by Newton,plotted retrogrades were common
to both Ptolemaic and Copernican astronomers and their conclusions are
based on seeing planetary motion directly from Earth,the Ptolemaics
judged those retrogrades from a stationary Earth while the Copernicans
resolved it through an orbitally moving Earth.

In short,you are uneccessarily including your axial rotational motion
in working on the Earth's heliocentric orbital orientation with the
solar system's galactic orbital orientation thereby making things far
more difficult for yourself.Familiarity with the orginal astronomical
reasoning behind Copernican heliocentricity as opposed to Ptolemaic
geocentricity is easy and delightful after the initial effort.

Your greatest obstacle may be bypassing Newtonian/cataloguing
quasi-geocentricity which uses a calendrically driven homogenised view
of axial and orbital motion and as far as I am concerned,attempting to
explain why and how it was done is more trouble than it is worth and
ultimately counterproductive.

As for the correct answer,well it reflects the original working
principles of Copernicus and the later Keplerian refinements which has
roots stretching back millenia and for those who can appreceate their
insights using the invaluable time lapse footage of planetary orbital
motion in isolation (see above) and the internet medium, my
contribution should be minimum.Unfortunately I have the task of
explaining the Newtonian obstruction to appreceating the Copernican
insight in a hostile enviroment and one which wishes to retain the
Ra/Dec convenience for calendrically driven optical astronomy.

Just a thought, to be awkward.

When you're standing still your not moving at all. The motion that you're
trying to describe is your motion relative to a point which is in sync to
the edge of the known universe. The problem with trying to say generally
how fast you you moving is that it can vary. To give a couple of examples.

You're stood still at a the side of the street. A car is comming towards
you at 40 mph. This means that relative to the car you are travelling at
40mph! You are getting closer to the car afterall. A bike is comming at you
from the opposite side and is travelling at 30 mph. Relative to the bike you
are travelling at 30 mph. But, the car is travelling at 70mph relative to
the bike.

Move this up to a cosmic scale, there is a black hole, not moving (this is
you) a galactic cluster is moving toward it at .75 of the speed of light
(this is the car) A galaxy (the bike) is moving toward the black hole from
the oppisite direction at .6 of the speed of light. The black hole could be
moving at .6 or .75 of the speed of light depending on what you are
measuring. It's all relative. Lets remove the black hole. You now have
the galaxy and galactic cluster on a collision course. Their closing speed
is 1.25 time the speed of light. This is a rather nasty thought as the
galaxy would see the galactic cluster comming!

OK, so I've digressed a little, but the point is that speed is relative.
There's no reason, AFAIK, that we're not already travelling faster than the
speed of light relative to something. The big bang theory as it is not
enought proof for me, as we could easily be talking about two of what we
currently consider at a universe could be on a collision course. Now
that's a scary thought.


--
Regards

Colin Dawson
www.cjdawson.com

"Laury" wrote in message
...
I was trying to find out how fast I am travelling when I stand still.

I discovered:
Earth rotation is 1000 mph at equator(0.3 miles/s)
Earth moves round sun 18.5 m/s (66,000 mph)
Sun moves round galaxy 155 m/s galaxy
Galaxy moves wrt local cluster 185 m/s.

But couldn't find out what the various directions are. What I need to
know still a
1. At what time of year do we move round the sun in the 'same'
direction as the sun is moving round the galaxy; and what is the angle
between thes motions?
2. What is the angle between the motion round galaxy, and the motion
wrt local cluster.

Anyone know where I can find this?
--
Laury

"Colin Dawson" wrote in message
k...
....
| OK, so I've digressed a little, but the point is that speed is
relative.

Well thanks for those thoughts. Let me know if you find a source for
the angles I was seeking, e.g., the angles between the various
(relative) motions.

--
Laury