Step up from Toucam ?

What would you buy to upgrade from a Toucam2 for use on Planets and DSI ?

I've started to look at what's available and found..

ATIK 2C/2HS/16HR/16
Starlight Express SXV-M8C/M7C/M7
Meade DSI Pro II (same CCD as ATIK 16)
SBIG ST 402 ME/MEI/ ST7XMEI

I know these vary a lot in cost but I hope to get a trip to the US soon so
hope to take advantage of the $/£ rates.

Any others to consider / recommendations / advice ?

Cheers

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:38:17 -0000, "dylan" wrote:

What would you buy to upgrade from a Toucam2 for use on Planets and DSI ?

I've started to look at what's available and found..

ATIK 2C/2HS/16HR/16
Starlight Express SXV-M8C/M7C/M7
Meade DSI Pro II (same CCD as ATIK 16)
SBIG ST 402 ME/MEI/ ST7XMEI

I know these vary a lot in cost but I hope to get a trip to the US soon so
hope to take advantage of the $/£ rates.

Any others to consider / recommendations / advice ?

Cheers

Lumenera LU075?
--
Pete Lawrence
http://www.digitalsky.org.uk
Last updated 4th February 2006

"dylan" wrote in message
...
What would you buy to upgrade from a Toucam2 for use on Planets and DSI
?

I've started to look at what's available and found..

ATIK 2C/2HS/16HR/16
Starlight Express SXV-M8C/M7C/M7
Meade DSI Pro II (same CCD as ATIK 16)
SBIG ST 402 ME/MEI/ ST7XMEI

I know these vary a lot in cost but I hope to get a trip to the US soon
so hope to take advantage of the $/£ rates.

Any others to consider / recommendations / advice ?

Cheers
For planets, the toucam, is pretty damn good. The key is that for
planetary imaging, you ideally want to take a lot of images _quickly_, and
grab the good ones, then combine these. Webcams are almost unsurpassed in
this, and I'd keep to this for the planets. When you switch to DSO's, the
formula changes. For long exposures, if thermal noise is not going to be
too much of a problem, cooling the chip becomes essential. Long exposures,
then allow a greater signal range to be recorded, which requires an ADC
with more bits available. Unfortunately, 'better' ADC's, if they are being
properly handled, will have slower sampling rates. This then makes the
cameras slightly less good for planetary work than the webcam!....
You don't say what scope is involved?.
The M8C, for example, has small pixels. This means that they both collect
less photons in a given scope, and because they are smaller, have a lower
'well depth' (number of electrons that can be held). Generally this means
the camera is better suited to short focal length scopes, where the small
pixels each cover a reasonable 'angle' in the final image. It is a great
camera for something like a ED80, but on an SCT, the small pixels will
mean the image is massively 'oversampled', with each star covering dozens
of pixels. On a mono camera, this would be less of a problem, since you
can 'bin' the camera, making a group of four, or even nine pixels, behave
as a single 'super pixel'. Reading this with only one lot of sampling
noise. Unfortunately the colour cameras do not allow you to bin the image,
without losing the colour information.
With all these cameras, to make good use of the camera, the mount needs to
be guided. Summing multiple short exposures, while a great way of doing
better than a short exposure on it's own, and having certain advantages
(combining images this way, can give improved resolution), is no
substitute for longer images. Combining multiple longer exposures is
better... Now only the Starlight cameras of the models you list, have any
ability to guide (the DSI, can guide _or_ image, but not both). The SBIG
ST7XME (without the 'I'), is the version with a guide chip built in. You
can for example, guide with a OAG, and a webcam (since you already have
this), but you need to think about this, before buying a camera.
What is the mount?. This is the biggest single source of problems when
imaging, especially when the image scale rises.

Best Wishes

"dylan" wrote in message
...
What would you buy to upgrade from a Toucam2 for use on Planets and DSI ?

I've started to look at what's available and found..

ATIK 2C/2HS/16HR/16
Starlight Express SXV-M8C/M7C/M7
Meade DSI Pro II (same CCD as ATIK 16)
SBIG ST 402 ME/MEI/ ST7XMEI

I know these vary a lot in cost but I hope to get a trip to the US soon so
hope to take advantage of the $/£ rates.

Any others to consider / recommendations / advice ?


Hi

For DSO I personally prefer a B+W camera over a one shot colour. They are
much more sensitive and versatile. They are better for science
(photometry/spectroscopy too) The downside is you need filters to make
colour images but these can be narrow band for example H alpha to take some
very interesting images.

If you don't mind a bit of simple construction you can make an ATIK 16 for
less money by going to the designers here and buying a kit
http://www.artemisccd.co.uk/Artemis_Cameras.htm

Similarly the ATIK2 is an long exposure webcam with a chip transplant as
per Steve Chambers SC3 mod. I use a B+W one of these for most of my work. It
is remarkably low noise for an uncooled camera but only 8 bits of course.
You can see my take on the design here
http://www.leadbeaterhome.fsnet.co.uk/pisp4.htm

I would echo the comment about a mount. Sell your grandmother to get the
best you can ;-)

Robin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Robin Leadbeater
54.75N 3.24W
http://www.leadbeaterhome.fsnet.co.uk/astro.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

Originally Posted by dylan

What would you buy to upgrade from a Toucam2 for use on Planets and DSI ?

I've started to look at what's available and found..

ATIK 2C/2HS/16HR/16
Starlight Express SXV-M8C/M7C/M7
Meade DSI Pro II (same CCD as ATIK 16)
SBIG ST 402 ME/MEI/ ST7XMEI

I know these vary a lot in cost but I hope to get a trip to the US soon so
hope to take advantage of the $/£ rates.

Any others to consider / recommendations / advice ?

Cheers

You don't quote your interests but top amateurs doing serious work [SNe hunting = fame!/ NEO astrometry/ VS photometry etc] - mostly use the mono SBIG CCDs of highest sensitivity. In any case go for the best deal you can get.

Nytecam

"Pete Lawrence" wrote in message
news

Lumenera LU075?

Thanks Pete.

I looked this model up on the Web, and see it uses the same CCD as the ATIK
2.

Do you think it would offer better results than the Meade DSI PRO 2 which
appears to offer more resolution and a larger CCD, so hopefully better
noise, at a similar cost ?. I can't seem to see any figures for sensitivity
but I'll keep looking.

Thanks

Roger,

Thanks for all the great info, lots for me to work on.

I agree the Toucam 2 is a great camera for planets, and excellent value, and
possibly the ideal would be something similar with more pixels and a bit
less noise.

For DSO's I'm considering a 80ED APO , (I'm currently using a skwatcher 80 /
Canon 400 f5.6 L), and using it as a guider for an LX10, hopefully to be
replaced soon (or supplemented) with a CPC1100 or similar

As you can see lots of things are in the pipeline and I'm hoping to take
this opportunity of a trip to the US to 'invest' in a good CCD camera.

Cheers

Hi

For DSO I personally prefer a B+W camera over a one shot colour. They are
much more sensitive and versatile. They are better for science
(photometry/spectroscopy too) The downside is you need filters to make
colour images but these can be narrow band for example H alpha to take
some
very interesting images.

If you don't mind a bit of simple construction you can make an ATIK 16 for
less money by going to the designers here and buying a kit
http://www.artemisccd.co.uk/Artemis_Cameras.htm

Similarly the ATIK2 is an long exposure webcam with a chip transplant as
per Steve Chambers SC3 mod. I use a B+W one of these for most of my work.
It
is remarkably low noise for an uncooled camera but only 8 bits of course.
You can see my take on the design here
http://www.leadbeaterhome.fsnet.co.uk/pisp4.htm

I would echo the comment about a mount. Sell your grandmother to get the
best you can ;-)

Thanks Robin, great information.
I'll certainly consider the construction route, although it always looks a
bit complex.
Thanks for the links.

Must go and get the grandmother on e-Bay ;O)

Cheers

"dylan" wrote in message
...
Roger,

Thanks for all the great info, lots for me to work on.

I agree the Toucam 2 is a great camera for planets, and excellent value,
and possibly the ideal would be something similar with more pixels and a
bit less noise.
On planetary images, noise should not be objectionable on such a camera.
More pixels,implies slower downloads, so you are back into this 'catch'.
The M8C, has a new controller card 'coming' (don't think it is out yet),
which will massively speed the downloads, bringing them to a speed limited
by the ADC, and if a small subframe is selected (so you are only pulling
down as many pixels as the webcam), should be able to get download rates
of perhaps 10+ frames/second, which then makes it a good potential
planetary imager. However remember you will need a lot of focal length
with any CCD for planetary images. I use 10m+.

For DSO's I'm considering a 80ED APO , (I'm currently using a skwatcher
80 / Canon 400 f5.6 L), and using it as a guider for an LX10, hopefully
to be replaced soon (or supplemented) with a CPC1100 or similar
Of all the SCT's, the Celestron 11", is just about my favourite. However
you need to reflect, that with this scope, even if you add a *.63 reducer,
with a much larger CCD, like the ST2000, you are still only talking a
'frame width' covering 23 arc minutes of the sky.

As you can see lots of things are in the pipeline and I'm hoping to take
this opportunity of a trip to the US to 'invest' in a good CCD camera.
Another poster has said to look at the SBIG units, and for a C11,
something like the ST2000, or even better the ST10, is much more the sort
of camera that would give worthwhile results...
Remember also, that though the prices look much better stateside, and many
people do manage to bring kit back OK, if you have no VAT receipt, it can
latter be a problem if you want to sell second hand, and also, that many
people do get caught by Customs. A camera,is not small... Technically,
make sure your invoice says 'CCD astronomical imager'. This attracts 0%
duty (other instrument and apparatus using optical radiation), as Taric
code 9027 50 where 'astronomical accessory', or 'unclassified electronic
equipment', or cinematographic camera (which is what it'll otherwise be
classed as), attract anything up to 4.5%. Given that VAT is charged, on
the total plus duty, this can make a 5% difference to the total price!.
Though you are obviously considering guiding with a seperate scope,
remember that SCT's, will show mirror shift (even the Meade units with
mirror locks, do...). Off axis guiding, while less convenient, is much
more likely to give really round star shapes for longer exposures.

Best Wishes

"dylan" wrote in message
...
Do you think it would offer better results than the Meade DSI PRO 2 which
appears to offer more resolution and a larger CCD, so hopefully better
noise, at a similar cost ?. I can't seem to see any figures for
sensitivity but I'll keep looking.

Thanks

Hi Dylan

Myself and a few others have had issues with the Meade DSI Pro showing a
sort of interlacing on brighter objects. This has made the DSI Pro pretty
useless for planetary work for myself (and one or two others that have made
similar comments on yahoo usergroups).

This doesn't mean to say that similar issues will be seen on the DSI Pro 2
but it would be worth joining one of the usergroups and asking for guidance
on the Pro 2 for planetary work before splashing out on one. Try asking for
some non-DSO examples taken with the imager.

Regards


Chris