Von Neumann machines. The key to space and much else.

What is a Von Neumann machine? It is a machine that will make itself.
It is an awesome prospect. It means that if we use the materials in
space- the Moon or asteroids. NASA has looked at the Moon although in
many ways asteroids are a better bet as they have little gravitational
potential and a velocity of a few m/s is sufficient to break free.

With a VN machine large structures in space become immediately
practicable.

1) A space based solar energy system which beams microwaves down to
Earth.
2) Someone has considered reversing global warming by placing aluminum
foil in orbit. This could in fact be developed into a sophisticated
system for climate control with some areas heated and others cooled.
3) Some time ago I introduced a thread on the "nonsense of manned space
flight" I went on to say however in later postings that if a manned
trip to Mars could be accomplished at the sort of cost that we
associate with sponsorship people should be allowed tp go ahead. With a
VN machine building your base on Mars, and even building a spacecraft
which would be parked in LEO, you are within reach of sponsorship - Eat
one Mars bar a day!
4) Large structures for the scientific exploration of space become
possible. One thing which I have in mind, you might call it a pet
hobbyhorse is a large scale array of LISA type spacecraft, one which
could produce a gravitational image similar to the COBE 2.7K radiation.
It could identify sources of gravitational waves with definite objects.
The present LISA project will produce a Fourier spectrum but will not
identify directions in any way.
5) The perfection of a VN would have enormous military consequences. In
fact space based lasers could strike anywhere on Earth and would be an
alternative to air strikes.

Is it possible to make such a thing? In this reference NASA analyzes
the idea.
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepNASA.html
As you can see a considerable amount of work has been done on the
topic. NASA has in fact gone so far as to produce details of the number
of separate parts that would be required. The latest paper I can access
is 1990. After that the paper chase seems to grow cold. All biological
organisms are Von Neumann machines which reproduce themselves until
resources are exhausted. Modern manufacturing is performed by digitally
controlled machine tools which have associated with them something akin
to a genetic code. A VN machine simply involves closing the loop. A
bacterium has a complexity of about 10 million bits. Simple assembly
systems with chemicals provided could give a complexity of a million
bits.

A lunar system which would manufacture chemicals is envisaged at around
10 billion bits. The design discusses the properties of lunar basalt
(asteroid material is not that different, although outer asteroids
contain considerable quantities of water in the form of ice).

Von Neumann machines are associated with nanotechnology. Certainly
nanotechnology will reduce the weight of any system. NASA originally
estimated 100 tons for the initial seed. Nanotechnology might be able
to reduce this.

The NASA papers talk about melting Lunar basalt using solar energy. An
alternative to basalt might well be lunar dust. When terrestrial rocks
are pulverized the resultant powder consists of single crystals of pure
compound. Lunar dust is, presumably, the same and so nano sorting will
produce pure chemicals. Helium 3 could also be extracted, as far as
global energy needs were concerned we would not need to do this, but if
we were going long distances in space it would be extremely useful.

The next reference considers Von Neumann machines in a more biological
way.
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html
I have a number of specific points on this paper, I wonder why if the
diamond structure is being made by a pseudobiological process, enzymes
cannot be used to place impurities on the diamond thereby making it
into a semiconductor.

On the question of robust safety is concerned, one route would be to
have the circle almost complete but not quite. If you were making
semiconductors and were let us say using synchrotron radiation, the
availability of Niobium Tin for superconductors would be a limiting
factor.

There has been a thread about the purpose of NASA. As I have said above
the paper trail goes cold after 1990. What has happened?

1) Has the project been abandoned?
2) Is is being carried on in secret?

VN technology will have a profound effect on our civilization. It is
perhaps the most important thing NASA has ever done. If a country were
to posses a VN machine which other countries lacked that country would
have a hold over all the others. Conventional military weapons would be
impotent against a massive space based strike facility. Economically
all our energy problems could be solved. Dependence on Middle Eastern
oil would be a thing of the past.

If Russia or China were to develop such a system the consequences for
the US (and the EU) would be serious.

What is a Von Neumann machine? It is a machine that will make itself.

Can you tell me why it's called that? I'm familiar with VN in a
superficial, non-mathematical way, but this is the first I've heard of
a VN machine. Did he first suggest it?

vince norris

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:10:21 -0700, Ian Parker wrote
(in article .com):

5) The perfection of a VN would have enormous military consequences. In
fact space based lasers could strike anywhere on Earth and would be an
alternative to air strikes.

We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10", bipedal and
autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and general
quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.

-- Charlie Springer

There's been some work done in that area:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/robot-05q.html

But I'm not sure when/if this type of device will become advanced
enough
to replicate itself.

Something like that is being worked on. See:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/robot-05q.html

Though I'm not sure if/when such a device will become advanced enough
to
perform self-replication.

Something like that is being worked on. See:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/robot-05q.html

Though I'm not sure if/when such a device will become advanced enough
to
perform self-replication.

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

this is the first I've heard of
a VN machine. Did he first suggest it?

The idea had been kicked around occasionally in earlier futurism and
SF. Alan Turing's "universal computer" (one that could in principle
emulate any computer) got Von Neumann thinking about a "universal
constructor" that could do all that *and* copy itself (and a bag of
chips).

In the posthumous _Theory of Self-Reproducing Automata_ he put a
clear focus on exponential growth and speculated about potential uses
in space, where there would be a premium in getting the most bang per
kg. from what we could afford to send out. Freeman Dyson has taken it
farther, suggesting that microelectronics and genetic engineering
could combine to yield space-going cyborgs that might (among other
things) gather and process asteroid resources so that later human
explorers would find water, O2 etc. waiting for them.

And, of course, there's a direct line from von Neumann to Drexler and
the nanocult. Even if one admits any limitation to what one nanobot
could do, it can be handwaved away with enough doublings.

Charlie Springer wrote:
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:10:21 -0700, Ian Parker wrote
(in article .com):


5) The perfection of a VN would have enormous military consequences. In
fact space based lasers could strike anywhere on Earth and would be an
alternative to air strikes.


We already use them in combat. They are typically about 5' 10", bipedal and
autonomous. Big improvements could be made in power source and
heat/environmental tolerance and communication/navigation and general
quantitative sensor interface as well as processing speed.

-- Charlie Springer


I'm quite familiar with that model. Unfortunately the software has quite
a few bugs in it and the hardware tends to break down on a regular
basis. It's in need of some re-design. Not sure if they're still in
warranty.

Bill,
Phoenix

wrote:
There's been some work done in that area:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/robot-05q.html

But I'm not sure when/if this type of device will become advanced
enough
to replicate itself.

The really hard part of the self replication step is refining soil into
usable materials. Ideally, you want something where you put a kg of
soil into the refiner and you get the metals (or even just a metalic
alloy) out the other end (probably in liquid form, or maybe cast into
reasonably standard shapes). It would mainly be aluminium (16%),
silicon (59%) and iron (6%). There is also the issue of a power
source. The energy source would probably need to be stong enough to
melt the soil. The machine would probably end up being a small refiner
in the middle of lots of solar collectors or maybe a set of
concentrating mirrors. You need something that will remove the oxygen
from the metals and is somehow recyclable or extractable from the soil
intake.

The big problem with VNs is, where exactly do they get the tremendous
diversity of compounds necessary to build themselves? Here is an
example of what I mean. Let's say you've got a shiny new VN: the
Ian_Parker_3000 mark 1. It's a very complex machine. It's not made
out of mud bricks and straw. It has some very sophisticated
constituent parts. For instance, many of its electrical connectors are
gold-plated to resist corrosion. It can build a copy of itself, sure,
but one of the things it needs (one in a long long list of things) is
gold.

As you mention, you can process lunar soil and obtain lots of different
compounds, but I seriously doubt you'd be able to find enough gold to
make the job worthwhile. If one Ian_Parker_3000 has to process so much
soil in the act of building one copy of itself that it digs a hole
that's visible from Earth, well I get the feeling it will be at or near
the end of it's life expectancy by the time it's done with that task.
It certainly isn't going to have time to do anything useful.

At any rate, long before we start talking about machines that build
themselves, how about we talk about machines that build *anything* in
space. If you could design a reliable solar panel that could be built
out of nothing more than lunar regolith, and if you build a robot that
builds those solar panels, then I think you'd have something a lot more
useful in the here and now than a VN Machine. If the robot could build
more solar panels (by mass) than the mass of the robot itself, then
you've saved the cost of transporting those solar panels to the Moon.

The robot I've described is complex, and quite possibly beyond our
present technology. Yet it's many order's of magnitude easier to build
than a VN. If you can't build this robot, then there's really no way
that you can build a VN machine.