Shuttle - how many flights as pilot before becoming commander?

"Neon Knight" wrote:

So, in general, it seems that before becoming shuttle commander, an
astronaut must first fly as pilot. Is there a "minimum" amount of
flights one must make as pilot before being promoted to commander?

No, it depends on a lot of factors such as number of missions on the
schedule, number of CDR-qualified astronauts available, number of unflown
pilot astronauts, etc.

Of the ex-MOL astronauts (Group 7) and the first shuttle group (Group 8)
almost all flew as CDR after a single mission as PLT. Of the Group 9 pilots
only two flew as CDR after a single PLT flight. All of Group 10 (except
Hammond) got a command after a single flight.

From Group 11 onwards it became "normal" to serve as PLT for two missions,
but there have been exceptions - Curt Brown, Rominger, Horowitz (3).

Rick Husband (Group 15) was assigned to command STS-107 after a single flight
as Pilot.

--

Brian Lawrence

Wantage, Oxfordshire, UK

Neon Knight wrote:
So, in general, it seems that before becoming shuttle commander, an
astronaut must first fly as pilot. Is there a "minimum" amount of
flights one must make as pilot before being promoted to commander?

There's no absolute rule, it's more a function of how many qualified
commanders are available, the flight rate, and how well a pilot gets
along with his bosses (chief astronaut, head flight crew operations,
JSC center director, etc.)

Joe Engle set the unique record of the only rookie to command a shuttle
mission (STS-2). Of course Engle was already an Air Force astronaut
with several X-15 pilots and plenty of test pilot experience. In theory
a rookie could be trained as a commander, but there's plenty of
qualified pilots who have the actual experience.

In the mid 1980s most of the 1978 pilots became commanders on their
second flights although there were some exceptions who flew twice as
pilot before becoming commanders, and ones who flew as an MS2 on their
first flight, PLT on second, and CDR on the third.

In the late 1980s a couple of 1984 pilots were assigned to fly as PLTs
for their second missions but later the decision was made to give them
commands of other missions and the missions they were already on had
slight changes in their crews to adjust. (ISTR that John Casper was
originally the PLT for STS-50 with Ken Bowersox as the MS2. Casper was
'promoted' to command STS-54 and Bowersox became the PLT for STS-50).

In a couple of cases PLTs have flown three times as PLT before becoming
a CDR, however there are also cases where PLTs have flown once or twice
without ever getting to command a mission.

When Rick Husband was assigned to command STS-107 it was the first time
a PLT went straight to CDR on his second flight since 1993 (Frank
Culbertson on STS-51). At that point there was a shortage of CDRs (the
1992 class only had four PLTs, several astronauts had retired or moved
to management decisions. As a consequence folks like Curt Brown, Jim
Wetherbee, and Kent Rominger were lucky enough to turnaround rapidly
and fly multiple commands over a couple of years). STS-107 was the
least dynamic mission (no spacewalks, no robot arm ops, no docking with
ISS or Hubble) so it made sense to give it to the PLT with the least
spaceflight experience in the office.

Now it seems like NASA wants to get several PLTs promoted to CDR
quickly to build up for the future before they become too old, so
several 1996 PLTs are getting promoted to CDR on their second flights.


Alex Harris

alex wrote:

When Rick Husband was assigned to command STS-107 it was the first time
a PLT went straight to CDR on his second flight since 1993 (Frank
Culbertson on STS-51). At that point there was a shortage of CDRs (the
1992 class only had four PLTs, several astronauts had retired or moved
to management decisions. As a consequence folks like Curt Brown, Jim
Wetherbee, and Kent Rominger were lucky enough to turnaround rapidly
and fly multiple commands over a couple of years). STS-107 was the
least dynamic mission (no spacewalks, no robot arm ops, no docking with
ISS or Hubble) so it made sense to give it to the PLT with the least
spaceflight experience in the office.

Now it seems like NASA wants to get several PLTs promoted to CDR
quickly to build up for the future before they become too old, so
several 1996 PLTs are getting promoted to CDR on their second flights.


To name a couple, Scott Kelly has been assigned to command STS 118 even
before the loss of Columbia. He's only flown on STS 103, though he did
a backup stint for an ISS Crew.

Mark Polansky, originally assigned as pilot for STS 117 was bumped up
to command STS 116 when its original commander, Terry Wilcutt was moved
into a management position. He's so far only flown in STS 98.

The only 1996 PLT not assigned to anything right now as PLT or CDR is
Steve Frick, and he's so far only flown on STS 110. I wouldn't be
surprised if he gets a shot at CDR on his second flight.

I guess its safe to say Brown and Rominger, like Wetherbee were a
couple of the "bubbas"?

By far the most ridiculous turnaround was Bob Crippen, from STS 7 in
1983, to STS 41-C to STS 41-G, BOTH in 1984. I'm sure that ****ed some
people off in the Astronaut Office.

-A.L.

Not sure. Commander Chekhov never did tell me.

Andrew Lotosky wrote:


By far the most ridiculous turnaround was Bob Crippen, from STS 7 in
1983, to STS 41-C to STS 41-G, BOTH in 1984. I'm sure that ****ed some
people off in the Astronaut Office.


How can you be sure ? Were you there ?

NASA bios include no astronaut by the name of Andrew Lotosky.

Justa Lurker wrote:
Andrew Lotosky wrote:


By far the most ridiculous turnaround was Bob Crippen, from STS 7 in
1983, to STS 41-C to STS 41-G, BOTH in 1984. I'm sure that ****ed some
people off in the Astronaut Office.


How can you be sure ? Were you there ?

NASA bios include no astronaut by the name of Andrew Lotosky.

Wow...

Just, wow.

*PLONK*

-A.L.

On 10 Aug 2005 19:35:50 -0700, "Andrew Lotosky"
wrote:


Mark Polansky, originally assigned as pilot for STS 117 was bumped up
to command STS 116 when its original commander, Terry Wilcutt was moved
into a management position. He's so far only flown in STS 98.


Is it safe to assume that a promotion to management likely spells the
end of an astronaut's flying career? What if he doesn't want to go?
After all the years of hard training to be a shuttle astronaut, can
one say "no" to a boot up the ladder and still have a job?

Burnham Treezdown wrote:
On 10 Aug 2005 19:35:50 -0700, "Andrew Lotosky"
wrote:


Mark Polansky, originally assigned as pilot for STS 117 was bumped up
to command STS 116 when its original commander, Terry Wilcutt was moved
into a management position. He's so far only flown in STS 98.


Is it safe to assume that a promotion to management likely spells the
end of an astronaut's flying career? What if he doesn't want to go?
After all the years of hard training to be a shuttle astronaut, can
one say "no" to a boot up the ladder and still have a job?

Hardly.

Frank Culbertson was manager of the Shuttle-Mir program and later got
assigned to Command the third ISS Expedition. And there are more
examples out there that escape me at the moment.

-A.L.

"Andrew Lotosky" wrote in news:1123734147.508045.63360
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:


Burnham Treezdown wrote:
On 10 Aug 2005 19:35:50 -0700, "Andrew Lotosky"
wrote:


Mark Polansky, originally assigned as pilot for STS 117 was bumped up
to command STS 116 when its original commander, Terry Wilcutt was moved
into a management position. He's so far only flown in STS 98.


Is it safe to assume that a promotion to management likely spells the
end of an astronaut's flying career? What if he doesn't want to go?
After all the years of hard training to be a shuttle astronaut, can
one say "no" to a boot up the ladder and still have a job?

Hardly.

Frank Culbertson was manager of the Shuttle-Mir program and later got
assigned to Command the third ISS Expedition. And there are more
examples out there that escape me at the moment.

Jim Halsell returned from a management job for the command of STS-120.


--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.