Delta 4: heavier and bigger

Boeing's thinking bigger, and MUCH bigger.

Taking the Delta 4's inherant modularity, Boeing is
considering major upgrades to the Delta 4 Heavy that
could eventually take it to a Saturn V class (albeit
heavily modified).

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/...2004-03-01.pdf

Upgraded versions using modified existing pad structures
would have a payload range of 30 to 45 metric tons to LEO
and about 10 to 18 metric tons to escape velocity.

Using a new pad structure and using from 5 to 7 CBCs with
other upgrades, payload would range upwards to about 90
metric tons to LEO and around 35 tons to escape. In
physical size alone, it would be about as large as the
Saturn V due to its all-cryogenic tankage.

A new 7-meter CBC with a BIG new cryo engine would start at
Saturn V payloads. Shades of the M-1 and Nova, is all I can say....

There would be various upgrades of existing system as hinted
at in the above document, more than I'll try to list here.
The upper stage will have to grow, a lot, including the
use of multiple RL or MB-60s, or even a new cryo engine.
The RS-68 would also grow, and densified propellants are
suggested, too.

Naturally, LM will be thinking similar things with the Atlas
V. Who needs Shuttle C, eh? Modular's the way to go.

--Damon

"Damon Hill" wrote in message
34...
Boeing's thinking bigger, and MUCH bigger.

Taking the Delta 4's inherant modularity, Boeing is
considering major upgrades to the Delta 4 Heavy that
could eventually take it to a Saturn V class (albeit
heavily modified).

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/...2004-03-01.pdf

Upgraded versions using modified existing pad structures
would have a payload range of 30 to 45 metric tons to LEO
and about 10 to 18 metric tons to escape velocity.

Using a new pad structure and using from 5 to 7 CBCs with
other upgrades, payload would range upwards to about 90
metric tons to LEO and around 35 tons to escape. In
physical size alone, it would be about as large as the
Saturn V due to its all-cryogenic tankage.

A new 7-meter CBC with a BIG new cryo engine would start at
Saturn V payloads. Shades of the M-1 and Nova, is all I can say....

There would be various upgrades of existing system as hinted
at in the above document, more than I'll try to list here.
The upper stage will have to grow, a lot, including the
use of multiple RL or MB-60s, or even a new cryo engine.
The RS-68 would also grow, and densified propellants are
suggested, too.

Naturally, LM will be thinking similar things with the Atlas
V. Who needs Shuttle C, eh? Modular's the way to go.

--Damon

Damon

I agree that "Modular's the way to go". You have, without realising it,
answered two of my main questions: What diameter would the New Booster Core
be? and the really big question: Is this possible? Answer to the first
question is: 7 metres and the second question is answered with an emphatic
"Yes".

I have to say that I don't like the idea of adding the GEM solids to the
current configuration as it would be hugely complicated. However, the
configuration with seven CBC's and two MB-60's is of great interest.
Payload is much higher than I had anticipated and even higher than I dared
hope for.

I feel the NBC (the 7 metre core as mentioned in the .pdf)/4xCBC combination
is the best way to go, but the payload can be easily achieved with just
CBC's, then there is almost _no_ development cost. This beats anything I
could have hoped for, let alone come up with.

Thank you! )

--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge

"Alan Erskine" wrote in
:


I agree that "Modular's the way to go". You have, without realising
it, answered two of my main questions: What diameter would the New
Booster Core be? and the really big question: Is this possible?
Answer to the first question is: 7 metres and the second question is
answered with an emphatic "Yes".

That and a new pad infrastructure; hopefully a rail-mobile launch
platform. Though I suspect Boeing and NASA are thinking that Delta 4
Huge would use VAB and a modified MLP. I do wish they'd located
the manufacturing in the local area instead of in Alabama.

I have to say that I don't like the idea of adding the GEM solids to
the current configuration as it would be hugely complicated. However,
the configuration with seven CBC's and two MB-60's is of great
interest. Payload is much higher than I had anticipated and even
higher than I dared hope for.

I don't think that'd be too complicated, other than the modifications
to the core CBC, since the mounting points would have to be
moved 90 degrees and the pad connections would need additional
protection. But otherwise there aren't many big changes in the
existing design. A more powerful upper stage will be essential,
and even clusters of RL/MB 60s might be marginal. Maybe RLX, a
much larger expander cycle P&W's been studying.

I feel the NBC (the 7 metre core as mentioned in the .pdf)/4xCBC
combination is the best way to go, but the payload can be easily
achieved with just CBC's, then there is almost _no_ development cost.
This beats anything I could have hoped for, let alone come up with.

Thank you! )


I thought you'd enjoy this. Does seem to suggest lots of
possibilities without breaking the bank for an all-new launch system,
or the relatively inflexible Shuttle-C type concepts.

Delta IV Huge, I like that idea...

--Damon

On Fri, 28 May 2004 02:40:30 -0500, Damon Hill
wrote:

Boeing's thinking bigger, and MUCH bigger.

Taking the Delta 4's inherant modularity, Boeing is
considering major upgrades to the Delta 4 Heavy that
could eventually take it to a Saturn V class (albeit
heavily modified).

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/...2004-03-01.pdf

which claims...

"Once in service, the Delta IV Heavy will be the world’s
most powerful launch vehicle, able to place 13,160 kg
(28,950 lb) into geosynchronous transfer orbit. Built for the
U.S. Air Force’s Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle program,
the rocket is second in size only to the enormous Saturn V
rocket that lifted Apollo into space."

Er, pay no attention to that behemoth on the other side of the Banana
River. Space Shuttle? What Space Shuttle?

Brian

"Brian Thorn" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 May 2004 02:40:30 -0500, Damon Hill
wrote:

Boeing's thinking bigger, and MUCH bigger.

Taking the Delta 4's inherant modularity, Boeing is
considering major upgrades to the Delta 4 Heavy that
could eventually take it to a Saturn V class (albeit
heavily modified).

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/...2004-03-01.pdf

which claims...

"Once in service, the Delta IV Heavy will be the world's
most powerful launch vehicle, able to place 13,160 kg
(28,950 lb) into geosynchronous transfer orbit. Built for the
U.S. Air Force's Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle program,
the rocket is second in size only to the enormous Saturn V
rocket that lifted Apollo into space."

Er, pay no attention to that behemoth on the other side of the Banana
River. Space Shuttle? What Space Shuttle?

Brian

Perhaps they're referring to payload capacity as opposed to physical 'size'.

--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge

"Alan Erskine" wrote in
:

"Brian Thorn" wrote in message
...

"Once in service, the Delta IV Heavy will be the world's
most powerful launch vehicle, able to place 13,160 kg
(28,950 lb) into geosynchronous transfer orbit. Built for the
U.S. Air Force's Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle program,
the rocket is second in size only to the enormous Saturn V
rocket that lifted Apollo into space."

Er, pay no attention to that behemoth on the other side of the Banana
River. Space Shuttle? What Space Shuttle?

Perhaps they're referring to payload capacity as opposed to physical
'size'.

Perhaps so was Brian.

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
"Alan Erskine" wrote in
:

"Brian Thorn" wrote in message
...

"Once in service, the Delta IV Heavy will be the world's
most powerful launch vehicle, able to place 13,160 kg
(28,950 lb) into geosynchronous transfer orbit. Built for the
U.S. Air Force's Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle program,
the rocket is second in size only to the enormous Saturn V
rocket that lifted Apollo into space."

Er, pay no attention to that behemoth on the other side of the Banana
River. Space Shuttle? What Space Shuttle?

Perhaps they're referring to payload capacity as opposed to physical
'size'.

Perhaps so was Brian.

Shuttle payload up to 23 tonnes. Delta IV Heavy payload up to 23.5 tonnes.

--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge

"Alan Erskine" wrote in
:

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
"Alan Erskine" wrote in
:

"Brian Thorn" wrote in message
...

"Once in service, the Delta IV Heavy will be the world's
most powerful launch vehicle, able to place 13,160 kg
(28,950 lb) into geosynchronous transfer orbit. Built for the
U.S. Air Force's Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle program,
the rocket is second in size only to the enormous Saturn V
rocket that lifted Apollo into space."

Er, pay no attention to that behemoth on the other side of the
Banana River. Space Shuttle? What Space Shuttle?

Perhaps they're referring to payload capacity as opposed to
physical 'size'.

Perhaps so was Brian.

Shuttle payload up to 23 tonnes. Delta IV Heavy payload up to 23.5
tonnes.

That shuttle figure is for the LWT. The SLWT adds a few tons to payload
capacity.


--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message

That shuttle figure is for the LWT. The SLWT adds a few tons to payload
capacity.

Height, maybe?


--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge

http://www.astronautix.com/stages/shuttank.htm

3.5 tonne payload increase.

--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge