SpaceShipOne a Spy Plane?

I don't think it is, so bear with me.

The recent Rutan success at what on the surface
appears to be a business effort with an unlikely
profit motive brought back memories of the
mid-1970s, of the mysterious Mr. Hughes, and of
a massive undersea "mining" ship named Glomar
Explorer that at the time was heralded in the open
news media as a harbinger of a new undersea mining
business. It turned out to be a CIA-financed effort
to recover a sunken Soviet missile sub, but the
"open" cover was so effective that at least one
other company was supposedly started to compete
with Mr. Hughes!

So, I want to ask it as a rhetorical question,
not believing it to be true but wanting to discount
the possibility if possible. Is there any way that
the Rutan effort could make sense as part of an
"open" covert program for some unknown branch of the
U.S. Defense Dept. or some other agency? Could any
of the White Knight/SpaceShipOne technology have
really been developed to be used for, shall we say,
"non-commercial" purposes?

- Ed Kyle

wrote in message
ps.com...
I don't think it is, so bear with me.


snip

So, I want to ask it as a rhetorical question,
not believing it to be true but wanting to discount
the possibility if possible. Is there any way that
the Rutan effort could make sense as part of an
"open" covert program for some unknown branch of the
U.S. Defense Dept. or some other agency? Could any
of the White Knight/SpaceShipOne technology have
really been developed to be used for, shall we say,
"non-commercial" purposes?

Just after the first space flight of SS1, I suggested, jokingly exactly what
you ask. I did it as a kind of joke-troll post, but the thought has
remained. One proposal during the '70's was for a vehicle to be launched by
747 (can't remember the name) that would have let the vehicle be over any
point on Earth within half an hour. It would have been hugely expensive and
was not proceeded with. Then there was Black Horse (Zubrin) which was along
similar lines. That was not proceeded with. Now, we have SS1 which changes
all that.

Simple answer to your "non-commercial" question: No; all of SS1 (and it's
technologies) was built on a private contract.

However, the next step (orbital) will have enormous potential for
"non-commercial" activities. Also, have a look at the details provided by
commercially available photo-recon satellites - 1m resolution from 900km
orbit; now, compare that with the same sensors, mounted on an orbital
vehicle (SS2?) but only 130km altitude. While there are limits to
resolution, 30cm is excellent and if that information can be had within an
hour of a requirement being formulated, then it puts Keyhole and its
replacements/updates into a secondary role as it can be 14 days (330+ hours)
between overflights.


--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge

Alan Erskine wrote:

One proposal during the '70's was for a vehicle to be launched by
747 (can't remember the name) that would have let the vehicle be over any
point on Earth within half an hour.


Sortie.

It would have been hugely expensive and
was not proceeded with. Then there was Black Horse (Zubrin)


Burnside-Clapp, actually.

Well, White Knight could be used to launch small satellites into orbit, at
least into ballistic "pop-up" once-around ones. And a variant of that plane
was part of the Angel Enerprises project to create high-flying multi-day
platforms to give citywide cel service and data links to large cities like St.
Louis... that could be considered an ELINT spy plane type function, as well as
a pocket-sized AWACS craft. But SS1 was designed too strictly tot he
requirments of the prize to be good for much else, no range, no "legs". So,
sorry to disappoint the tin-foil hat crowd, but no, this really wouldn't "Fly"

Black Horse and Black Colt were ideas floated by an Air Force officer, IIRC,
not Zubrin.

wrote:
I don't think it is, so bear with me.

snip
Could any
of the White Knight/SpaceShipOne technology have
really been developed to be used for, shall we say,
"non-commercial" purposes?

- Ed Kyle




Well, to what end? We have satellites in orbit, we have lifting bodies
that can loft more than three people and we have not only the U2/SR-71
duo but drone platforms we can fly remotely.

So, what would the SS1 do that other stuff doesn't? Land James Bond
behind enemy lines?


TBerk

"MSu1049321" wrote in message
...
Well, White Knight could be used to launch small satellites into orbit, at
least into ballistic "pop-up" once-around ones.

Possibly, but is it big enough? For example, how does the weight of a fully
fueled SS1 compare to the weight of a fully fueled Pegasus?

But SS1 was designed too strictly tot he
requirments of the prize to be good for much else, no range, no "legs".
So,
sorry to disappoint the tin-foil hat crowd, but no, this really wouldn't
"Fly"

SS1 was also designed to explore the flight envelope of the follow-on
vehicle, SS2. SS2 has no reason to be "good for much else" beyond
suborbital tourism.

Jeff
--
Remove icky phrase from email address to get a valid address.

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"MSu1049321" wrote in message
...
Well, White Knight could be used to launch small satellites into orbit,
at
least into ballistic "pop-up" once-around ones.

Possibly, but is it big enough? For example, how does the weight of a
fully
fueled SS1 compare to the weight of a fully fueled Pegasus?

Looks like Pegaus weighs about 42,000 lbs and White Knight can only lift
8,000 lbs. so White Knight is a factor of 5 too small to launch a Pegasus,
which has a payload of about 800 lbs to LEO.

Jeff
--
Remove icky phrase from email address to get a valid address.

wrote in message ups.com...
I don't think it is, so bear with me.

Agreed. As others have mentioned, SS1 seems designed to meet the
x-prize requirements, and little else.

Going into wild tinfoil hat mode...
One thing that struck me about the SS1 flight profile was how fast the
climb really is. It takes over an hour for White Knight to go from
runway to 46K feet, and then a few minutes for SS1 to go from there to
350K feet. So what about an SS1 derivative as a high altitude
interceptor? It uses storeable propellants, and has simple systems, so
it can be ready pretty much all the time.

You have a whole fleet of White Knights constantly in the air, and
when an enemy ICBM or IRBM launch is detected, the SS1s are deployed
to kill them at 100 km altitude. SS1 with a single pilot leaves you
with a couple hundred kg for the targeting system and missile (or
cannon, if you are feeling retro) to do the kill. Most of the
tracking/radar systems could be on the White Knights and/or on the
ground.

Voila, White Knight/SS1 is the Scaled proposal for the missile defense
shield :P

Problems with this scenario:
- The climb should be fast enough, assuming you detect the missile at
launch, rather than when it is already coming down, but cross range
would seem to be extremely limited. If your coverage at apogee is a
40km circle, your fleet needs to be huge.
- Timing, guidance and prediction of where the warhead was going to be
would have to be really good. Especially since some modern warheads
have manuvering capability. Much of what makes SS1 cheap is it's
simple guidance and control systems, and it seems unlikely that this
would be up to the task.
- A few hundred kg is pretty small for the weapon system, even if it
merely needs to impact the target.
- And the real killer: why use a manned system ? An unmanned,
non-recoverable system would give you far more performance. One would
expect targeting to be largely automatic in any case. It's also hard
to imagine that a ground based system couldn't be cheaper than keeping
a bunch of carrier craft in the air 24/7.

That said, even a few thousand White Knight/SS1 combos would be cheap
in missile defense terms. True, you still have the cost of the weapon
system, but in mass production the aircraft should be quite a bit
cheaper than the $25 million that the first pair cost.

"T" wrote in message
. com...
wrote:
Well, to what end? We have satellites in orbit, we have lifting bodies
that can loft more than three people and we have not only the U2/SR-71
duo but drone platforms we can fly remotely.

Well, we have U2. SR-71 has been retired for some yaers.



So, what would the SS1 do that other stuff doesn't? Land James Bond
behind enemy lines?


TBerk