Fundamental Film Facts (51-L, 1/20/89)

Fundamental Film Facts:

Prior to the private screening session at KSC on or about the
subject date, as attended by Myron Papadakis and Howard
Acosta, I had requested but never received any E202 film from
NASA. Since the subject date, I have neither requested nor
received any E202 film from NASA.

I had requested and received a 35 mm reduction copy of E207
film, which I had specified must be an *unenhanced* copy of
the original. It contained none of the theodolite data.

On or about the subject date, Acosta and Papadakis viewed
E207 and E202 70 mm film with theodolite data at KSC. That
was the only film they had requested to see and the only film
NASA allowed them to see, according to their reports to me.
Their request was to see original film.


Comment and Opinion:

Since enhanced E207 photos in the PC Report look no different
than my 35 mm film, I assume that I was sent enhanced E207 film.

From Papadakis description of the 70 mm E207 film which he
viewed, and assuming he is telling the truth, my guess is that he
saw a different version of enhanced film than mine. If he and
Howard had seen the original or the master copy, they should
have seen both the black ID band (which is so distinct on my 35
mm E207 copy) *and* the distinct RCS thruster firings (which
my son says Howard now claims to have seen).

My guess as to what E202 film they saw is based on a few still
photos from that camera, some of which are in the PC Report.
Those are enhanced, and I see *only* a frustum-separation ring.
It seems impossible that NASA could have enhanced them from
the E207 film Papadakis claims to have seen. Enhancement
should have exaggerated a black ID band, not concealed it, so
I must assume that Pappy did not see original E202 film either.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

Yet you ridiculed, twisted, and spun.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)


Michael Gardner wrote in message
...

So, there is nothing to talk about.

Please see a minor correction below, in brackets (was E207):

John Maxson wrote
in message ...

My guess as to what E202 film they saw is based on a few still
photos from that camera, some of which are in the PC Report.
Those are enhanced, and I see *only* a frustum-separation ring.
It seems impossible that NASA could have enhanced them from
the [E202] film Papadakis claims to have seen. Enhancement
should have exaggerated a black ID band, not concealed it, so
I must assume that Pappy did not see original E202 film either.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

"John Maxson" wrote in message
...

Comment and Opinion:

Since enhanced E207 photos in the PC Report look no different
than my 35 mm film, I assume that I was sent enhanced E207 film.

From Papadakis description of the 70 mm E207 film which he
viewed, and assuming he is telling the truth, my guess is that he
saw a different version of enhanced film than mine. If he and
Howard had seen the original or the master copy, they should
have seen both the black ID band (which is so distinct on my 35
mm E207 copy) *and* the distinct RCS thruster firings (which
my son says Howard now claims to have seen).

Would you mind please explaining to the un-initiated what the effect of RCS
thruster firings at such low altitude would be??

Thanks (I think),
Cameron:-)

"Michael Gardner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"John Maxson" wrote:

Fundamental Film Facts:

Prior to the private screening session at KSC on or about the
subject date, as attended by Myron Papadakis and Howard
Acosta, I had requested but never received any E202 film from
NASA. Since the subject date, I have neither requested nor
received any E202 film from NASA.

I had requested and received a 35 mm reduction copy of E207
film, which I had specified must be an *unenhanced* copy of
the original. It contained none of the theodolite data.

On or about the subject date, Acosta and Papadakis viewed
E207 and E202 70 mm film with theodolite data at KSC. That
was the only film they had requested to see and the only film
NASA allowed them to see, according to their reports to me.
Their request was to see original film.


Cool, real information

Comment and Opinion:

Since enhanced E207 photos in the PC Report look no different
than my 35 mm film, I assume that I was sent enhanced E207 film.

From Papadakis description of the 70 mm E207 film which he
viewed, and assuming he is telling the truth, my guess is that he
saw a different version of enhanced film than mine. If he and
Howard had seen the original or the master copy, they should
have seen both the black ID band (which is so distinct on my 35
mm E207 copy) *and* the distinct RCS thruster firings (which
my son says Howard now claims to have seen).

Assuming he is telling the truth
my guess
they should have seen


My guess as to what E202 film they saw is based on a few still
photos from that camera, some of which are in the PC Report.
Those are enhanced, and I see *only* a frustum-separation ring.
It seems impossible that NASA could have enhanced them from
the E207 film Papadakis claims to have seen. Enhancement
should have exaggerated a black ID band, not concealed it, so
I must assume that Pappy did not see original E202 film either.

So they saw a 70mm version, you have a 35mm. The generation of both is
unknown. "Ehancement" of course is a gross term - and while it would be
unlikely to make a black band go away, it could certainly de-emphasize a
shadow. Of course if you want to believe that enhancement = tampering
with the images - all this is moot as anything that has been through
NASA couldn't be trusted including everything you got via FOIA.

So, there is nothing to talk about.

Then why do you keep talking and talking. You would do the Eveready Bunny
proud if he talked instead of beating his little drum.

--

Daniel
Mount Charleston, not Charleston, SC

"John Maxson"
From Papadakis description of the 70 mm E207 film which he
viewed, and assuming he is telling the truth, my guess is that he
saw a different version of enhanced film than mine

I think it is just as likely that he saw the same data you have but interpreted
the film differently.

Cameron Dorrough
wrote in message ...

Would you mind please explaining to the un-initiated what the
effect of RCS thruster firings at such low altitude would be??

Thanks (I think),

As concerns my posts, you have a history of heckling, badgering,
and abuse. You certainly don't consider yourself uninitiated as
to control systems, either. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see you in
a visit to sci.space.shuttle, with a civil attitude. I'm running short
of time today, but here's a link to an old post:

http://tinyurl.com/jb1d

I believe I posted at least one title from the NASA research on
this subject, in response to a post by Mary Shafer. The effect
depends mostly on Mach number and dynamic pressure; but
in the case of 51-L, burnthrough in the throat may have added
even more thrust to what may at times have been as many as
four right-aft yaw thrusters firing continuously. You also have
to consider torque due to moment arm (roll effect).

No thanks, (I suspect).

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

"Roger Balettie" wrote in message

"john_thomas_maxson" wrote:

Thus just *one* RCS jet can
produce an equivalent (but hazardous) thrust of up to 8,700 pounds
when not fired in the vacuum of space.

Total bulls**t. Prove that.

Roger

Fascinating. John Thomas Maxson ... yet again ... proves his knowledge of
rocket science. Atmospheric thruster firings below design altitude result
in incomplete expansion of the combustion gases in the nozzle - and lower
thrust. For instance, the X-15 engine (XLR-99) maximum thrust:

59,000 lb. Vacuum
57,000 lb. @45,000 ft.
51,090 lb. @Sea Level

I've got an equation around here that illustrates the relationship between
thrust and ambient pressure, etc.

Jon

John Maxson wrote
in message ...

But BBR (Burnt Beyond Repair), you "***don't care***
about the RCS!"

Remember, BBR, that's Balettie's bag (your partner in crime).
You know, the "former FDO" turned video game chief. Is
he still alive? Maybe 'StormFalcon' can give him some help.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

In article ,
"Jon Berndt" wrote:

"Roger Balettie" wrote in message

"john_thomas_maxson" wrote:

Thus just *one* RCS jet can
produce an equivalent (but hazardous) thrust of up to 8,700 pounds
when not fired in the vacuum of space.

Total bulls**t. Prove that.

Roger

Fascinating. John Thomas Maxson ... yet again ... proves his knowledge of
rocket science. Atmospheric thruster firings below design altitude result
in incomplete expansion of the combustion gases in the nozzle - and lower
thrust. For instance, the X-15 engine (XLR-99) maximum thrust:

59,000 lb. Vacuum
57,000 lb. @45,000 ft.
51,090 lb. @Sea Level

I've got an equation around here that illustrates the relationship between
thrust and ambient pressure, etc.

Jon


I've got a whole textbook here on gas pressure propulsion systems
(turbine, rocket, ramjet). He would do well to read it. I've got
another on compressible fluid dynamics that he ought to read first, plus
a few on mechanics of materials, structural dynamics, aircraft
performance, aerodynamics, flight dynamics, control systems and even
some on (*gasp!*) engineering ethics.

--
Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
"Heisenberg might have been here."
~ Anonymous