ED-100. Lets try it again....

The topic at hand, the ED-100.

The last thread about this scope got badly off track and I am hoping to start
anew and this time I hope we can stick to considering the ED-100 and just where
it might fit into the scheme of things.

My thinking...

One can judge a scope based on the design parameters and in so doing an 4 inch
F9 with an ED objective is not something that appeals to me at first glance.
My initial reaction to this scope was, too slow, too long....

I had guessed (and posted several times), based on the ED-80, that any 100mm ED
scope from Orion would be about F9.4, not the 100mm, F6-7 scope that everyone
dreams of.

But in reality the 900mm focal length is not as bad as it sounds, in fact it is
not bad at all. When making the field of view calculation for the terrestial
section, I realized this scope can give some nice widefield views, in fact,
this scope has about the same capability because of the 2 inch focuser as a
500mm FL scope with a 1.25 inch focuser.

With a 42 mm widefield eyepiece, it will be at 21X with a greater than 3 degree
FOV and a 4.6 mm exit pupil, that really should be quite nice. And if it lives
up to its potential in color free performance, this should be a scope that
could not only do the widefield stuff with a nice well corrected field of view,
but also operate at high magnifications as well. May be TeleVue wasn't so
silly with the TV-102.

Three Degrees is Good, color free at 200X is good.

There are plenty of folks who are quite happy with their Celestron 4 inch F10
refractors, they seem to do a nice job on double stars and reasonable job on
the planets, this new Orion Scope would be a natural upgrade that should
hopefully just fit right into place and provide a significant improvement in
color free performance.

So, while I do like Newtonians for a variety of reasons, I also know that a
refractor like this does have some real advantages, especially when EQ mounted.
Certainly the robustness and closed tube of a refractor is nice, no worries
about dust on the mirror and no worries of damage while cleaning it. Cooldown
and collimation are also non-problems.

Another advantage of a refractor like this is that it is not so big that it is
out of the question to use it for long range birding or other terrestial
viewing. One is certainly not going to hike down a canyon with it but setting
it up along a water way or at the top of a canyon should be great fun. With a
42 mm widefield eyepiece, it will provide 21X @ greater than 3 degree FOV,
certainly a reasonable low power for doing birds, 3 degrees is certainly doable
and the higher power stuff should be nice.

And as someone who has tried birding with a variety of Newtonians, (including
my 12.5 incher) the erect image of the refractor plus the eye piece position at
the rear is certainly far more ideal since most targets are about horizontal or
even below the scope.

My experience with 4 inch F9 APO's is limited to a few quick looks at Mars
through Ron Bee's TV-102, certainly those were nice and sharp and color free to
my uneducated eye. But as we know, Ron has done a lot of serious viewing
though his "Light Cup" and it has allowed him to develop into a talented
observer.

So the bottom line for me is that this scope surprised me because itactually
has a lot of potential as to do just exactly the things I like to do. Wander
about the night sky with a competent scope just enjoying.

It seems it has the potential to be a great general purpose astronomy scope,
short enough focal length to give some nice widefields of view but long enough
focal length to allow the ED objective to perform nicely at high
magnifications.

While it is not a scope I would necesarily choose, it is a scope that I think
will be very popular if it is comparable to its smaller brother, and then it
should provide some real pleasure and joy to just about everyone who uses it.

Best wishes and Clear skies

Jon Isaacs

====

The topic at hand, the ED-100.

The ED 100 might be a decent apo, some of them might even be well figured, they
will likely be produced to some agreed upon spec, but who knows what that is?

But I think a lot of weight is given to a design being an apo, without
considering other aberrations, knid of like, just because it is essentially
color free, it is all of a sudden a perfect optic. Of course this is not the
case.

While it is entirely possible that the scopes are going to be manufactured to
some minimum spec (but who knows what that is, it could be 1/4 wave for all we
know), there is also the distinct possibility (can't tell without looking
through one) that they will suffer from some surface roughness from being
mass-produced / machine polished.

Part of the problem is that it gets difficult to find folks that tend to
automatically identify surface roughness at the eyepiece, so as was mentioned
elsewhere, in another thread, by another person; I would want to see for myself
before I came away saying that just because it is an "apo" that it represents a
good value for the money.

It has also bugged me that it is rarely brought up that there is a lot more
than glass that makes up a quality OTA. The good makers put great effort into
providing generally exquisite components around their fine glass. It is all
part of their business philosophies.

Proper appointments do go a long way towards making the upper class apos more
palatable, considering what they cost.

I think that in China labor is the big savings factor, but to think that they
are not cutting other corners such as lens figure and surface roughness to name
a couple might be making a bit of a leap.

Pure speculation of course; and freely admitted. I would still love to have a
look through one someday.

The F9 thing doesn't bother me so much, my 8"er is even going to be an F9,
that's what it took to get the "color correction" part accomplished with the
glasses that were used.

I think the TV 102 was positioned to compete with the Tak FS 102, more of a
higher power 4"er as compared to their flagship TV 101, a high quality
"multipurpose" instrument.

My two cents,




rat
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To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
"Ratboy99" wrote in message
...
The topic at hand, the ED-100.

The ED 100 might be a decent apo, some of them might even be well
figured, they
will likely be produced to some agreed upon spec, but who knows what
that is?

But I think a lot of weight is given to a design being an apo, without
considering other aberrations, knid of like, just because it is
essentially
color free, it is all of a sudden a perfect optic. Of course this is not
the
case.

While it is entirely possible that the scopes are going to be
manufactured to
some minimum spec (but who knows what that is, it could be 1/4 wave for
all we
know), there is also the distinct possibility (can't tell without
looking
through one) that they will suffer from some surface roughness from
being
mass-produced / machine polished.

Part of the problem is that it gets difficult to find folks that tend to
automatically identify surface roughness at the eyepiece, so as was
mentioned
elsewhere, in another thread, by another person; I would want to see for
myself
before I came away saying that just because it is an "apo" that it
represents a
good value for the money.

Are you referring to another thread where I said: "I just got Orion's
catalog #046 with the 100mm ED on the cover. And while I wouldn't exactly
call these high end refractors, they certainly MAY offer the best value
for the money out there (though just how good the 100 is remains to be
seen)...

If you are referring to this, please note that I put TWO qualifiers in
there... One, that I wouldn't call these high end refractors, and two, it
remains to be seen just how good they are... And I also capitalized the
word MAY, so as to emphasize that "best value for the money" hasn't been
proven yet...

I think a company can deliver good value without including 4" state of the
art focusers, and CNC machined tubes, for those who are looking for a fine
view without frills... Right now, Orion is looking more and more like a
potential candidate for honors in this category. Your mileage may vary...

Jan

SNIP!


rat
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Are you referring to another thread where I said: "I just got Orion's
catalog #046 with the 100mm ED on the cover.

Not at all Jan, I don't get around to reading every thread and I must have
missed that one. My comments were strictly "shooting from the hip", as usual...

, they certainly MAY offer the best value
for the money out there (though just how good the 100 is remains to be
seen)...

Very possibly so, like I said, I've never seen one (which, you Must Admit,
according to SAA protocol, makes me eminently qualified to comment on it. ;-)

And I also capitalized the
word MAY, so as to emphasize that "best value for the money" hasn't been
proven yet...

They may very possibly be a great value for the money, I just think people (not
You, per se) see the word APO, and think that all will be hunky dory if it is
truly an APO. I was just pointing out that there are other considerations aside
from the choice of glass used. I think anyone with half a brain can design an
apo using fairly ubiquitous software at this point. I do sincerely hope that
your concerns with my comments are "tongue in cheek". I certainly don't want to
start another brew ha ha! One this week was plenty enough for me. I've got a
bad enough reputation as it is.

I think a company can deliver good value without including 4" state of the
art focusers, and CNC machined tubes, for those who are looking for a fine
view without frills...

Sure it may very well be true, I simply felt compelled to mention my concerns
with the blind enthusiasm that sometimes is bestowed upon these super-bargain
offerings, just because they emphasize the term APO, it is a "catch phrase"
now.

I think that true quality oriented companies such as AP and TAK don't deserve
to be thrown out with the bathwater in the process, if you know what I mean.

But if it is a duel you are looking for, well name your weapon, I myself,
lately am fond of the old fashioned (very old that is) double sabres:

http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/catalo...ge.php?pID=143

Let's have at it!
rat
~( );

email: remove 'et' from .com(et) in above email address

I like old things, too.

My choice, though, would be an 1873 model Colt Single Action Army revolver
with 4 3/4" barrel in .45 Colt...

http://www.fastdraw.org/

Look under "The Draw", and then under Thumbing Instruction, or Thumbing
Detail

--
To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
"Ratboy99" wrote in message
...
Are you referring to another thread where I said: "I just got Orion's
catalog #046 with the 100mm ED on the cover.

Not at all Jan, I don't get around to reading every thread and I must
have
missed that one. My comments were strictly "shooting from the hip", as
usual...

, they certainly MAY offer the best value
for the money out there (though just how good the 100 is remains to be
seen)...

Very possibly so, like I said, I've never seen one (which, you Must
Admit,
according to SAA protocol, makes me eminently qualified to comment on
it. ;-)

And I also capitalized the
word MAY, so as to emphasize that "best value for the money" hasn't
been
proven yet...

They may very possibly be a great value for the money, I just think
people (not
You, per se) see the word APO, and think that all will be hunky dory if
it is
truly an APO. I was just pointing out that there are other
considerations aside
from the choice of glass used. I think anyone with half a brain can
design an
apo using fairly ubiquitous software at this point. I do sincerely hope
that
your concerns with my comments are "tongue in cheek". I certainly don't
want to
start another brew ha ha! One this week was plenty enough for me. I've
got a
bad enough reputation as it is.

I think a company can deliver good value without including 4" state of
the
art focusers, and CNC machined tubes, for those who are looking for a
fine
view without frills...

Sure it may very well be true, I simply felt compelled to mention my
concerns
with the blind enthusiasm that sometimes is bestowed upon these
super-bargain
offerings, just because they emphasize the term APO, it is a "catch
phrase"
now.

I think that true quality oriented companies such as AP and TAK don't
deserve
to be thrown out with the bathwater in the process, if you know what I
mean.

But if it is a duel you are looking for, well name your weapon, I
myself,
lately am fond of the old fashioned (very old that is) double sabres:

http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/catalo...ge.php?pID=143

Let's have at it!
rat
~( );

email: remove 'et' from .com(et) in above email address

I like old things, too.

My choice, though, would be an 1873 model Colt Single Action Army revolver
with 4 3/4" barrel in .45 Colt...

http://www.fastdraw.org/


Well, then, you've probably got me licked. Just like the poor fellows in the
"Boxer Rebellion." Phew! Talk about taking it off topic.
rat
~( );

email: remove 'et' from .com(et) in above email address

"Jan Owen" wrote in message news:ovYSc.70783$sh.61334@fed1read06...
I like old things, too.

My choice, though, would be an 1873 model Colt Single Action Army revolver
with 4 3/4" barrel in .45 Colt...

http://www.fastdraw.org/



http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS...ia.metalstorm/

Sure it may very well be true, I simply felt compelled to mention my concerns
with the blind enthusiasm that sometimes is bestowed upon these super-bargain
offerings, just because they emphasize the term APO, it is a "catch phrase"
now.

I think both Jan and I made an effort to point out that we were discussing the
"potential" of the ED-100, what it could be, given that no one has seen one
yet.

I think that true quality oriented companies such as AP and TAK don't deserve
to be thrown out with the bathwater in the process, if you know what I mean.

It is interesting to note that both Roland Christen and Valery D. has said that
they believe that the ED-80 is a "true APO."

So since the ED-100 seems to have been designed to maintain the same level of
color correction as the ED-80, it seems indeed possible, even probable, that
this scope to can be considered a "true APO."

And while mechanically it is not going to be up to the standards of the
companies you mention, it just might serve many folks amazingly well.

-----------

And while you guys Rat and Jan are squaring off for the duel, I would like to
get in on the action. While my weapon of choice might be a tad bit slow on the
draw, it does pack some real punch....

http://www-ceam.ucsd.edu/CeamFacilities/sld005.htm

Best wishes and clear skies

jon

"Jon Isaacs" wrote in message
...
Sure it may very well be true, I simply felt compelled to mention my
concerns
with the blind enthusiasm that sometimes is bestowed upon these
super-bargain
offerings, just because they emphasize the term APO, it is a "catch
phrase"
now.

I think both Jan and I made an effort to point out that we were discussing
the
"potential" of the ED-100, what it could be, given that no one has seen
one
yet.

I think that true quality oriented companies such as AP and TAK don't
deserve
to be thrown out with the bathwater in the process, if you know what I
mean.

It is interesting to note that both Roland Christen and Valery D. has said
that
they believe that the ED-80 is a "true APO."

So since the ED-100 seems to have been designed to maintain the same level
of
color correction as the ED-80, it seems indeed possible, even probable,
that
this scope to can be considered a "true APO."

And while mechanically it is not going to be up to the standards of the
companies you mention, it just might serve many folks amazingly well.

-----------

And while you guys Rat and Jan are squaring off for the duel, I would like
to
get in on the action. While my weapon of choice might be a tad bit slow
on the
draw, it does pack some real punch....

http://www-ceam.ucsd.edu/CeamFacilities/sld005.htm

"Large Bore Gas Gun?"
I know him! I know him!

Seriously, the arrival of cheap APOs bodes ill for some manufacturers, since
some segment of their limited market will gravitate (har!) toward the
cheaper optics. As the Chinese learn to produce these things in quantity
they could control the lower-to-middle segment of the market and threaten
the high end fi only because the entire market for APOS is so small that
there can't be room for very many players. There is always a demand for
superior quality (see Questar) but the advent of affordable APOs might well
put a cap on their ability to grow. IMHO, if A-P and others don't take stpes
to increse the availability of their products, and A-P for one appears to be
doing just that, they face a difficult long-term outlook.

Bob

I am being misinterpreted; the 100 might be a fine scope, and I'm sure it's a
real APO too. That doesn't automatically give it 1/10 wave of spherical
correction and ultr-smooth optics, now, does it. I'm not saying it doesn't
either, we need to look through one and see how the detail is on Jupiter (or
not).

So since the ED-100 seems to have been designed to maintain the same level of
color correction as the ED-80, it seems indeed possible, even probable, that
this scope to can be considered a "true APO."



And while you guys Rat and Jan are squaring off for the duel, I would like to
get in on the action. While my weapon of choice might be a tad bit slow on
the
draw, it does pack some real punch....

http://www-ceam.ucsd.edu/CeamFacilities/sld005.htm

Um, I think you're probably going to beat both uf us.
rat
~( );

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