SETI: call to arms!

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically speaking.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html

Bruno,

"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message
om...
Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically
speaking.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html

I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!
Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little green
men yet" :-)
It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

Regards, Jason H.

Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars & Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too, and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes) it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...
Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home
24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is
true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &
Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about
extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad
to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,
and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to
seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I
think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)
it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Well, a science without a subject is not really a science except in
terms of the science of the search strategy and the medium itself (FFT,
electromagnetic spectrum, the sorts of signals we might hope to find).
All sort of other sciences (from archaeology to zoology) employ search
strategies but are aided with the benefits of finding things, confirming
theories, etc.

If SETI regularly found signals, and we decoded some of them with a
lexicon, etc. then we'd have HUGE science on our hands, not just the
science of a search strategy.

Science isn't just a search. Someone goes out on a sampling expedition
and uncovers a dinosaur skeleton. An amateur could have just as easily
done this. But to describe it as a new species, excavate and
reconstruct it -- that's where the scientist makes his grand entry. And
to publish, get the award, pad his vitae, and get more funding for the
next cycle -- that's the expectation of the scientist.


Rob Dekker wrote:
I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...

Jason,


"Jason H." wrote in message

hlink.net...

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:

Bruno,



"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

le.com...


Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.


Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI

facility

(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home

24/7

they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little

green

men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)


It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get

serious

support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the

dedicated

few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....




If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is

true,

but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &

Europa

and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about

extra-solar

planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad

to

hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,

and

much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to

seti@home

more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I

think

it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)

it

to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Rob,

"Rob Dekker" wrote in message
. ..
I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien' to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the
way that other space explorations are seen as science.

It is all very odd. I would think that the search for other life in the
Galaxy (or Universe) would have much higher priority. To me, SETI is even
more meaningful than, for example, what Hubble does. Yet billions have been
spent on Hubble and all the studies & analysis surrounding it. Yet virtually
not a pitance for SETI. Yet if SETI succeeds it would be more mindboggling
than anything received from Huibble so far. It is all so odd!

Perhaps you are right in saying SETI is not a science, but then what of
Hubble? It is a search too --- an optical search of the Universe --- a step
in learning more and more detail about the structure of the Universe.

If it wasn't for the fact that SETI is searching for "electronmagnetic
radiation (signals) from other intelligent civilizations" then SETI would
just be "radio astronomy" ...

I stand by my earliar statement that SETI is out on the fringes of science
("fringe science") and as such does not get alot of respect in general.
Everyone is interested in finding signs of other intelligent life "out
there", but they'd rather put their money somewhere else ...


When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

But how does it differ from Hubble for example?

On the one hand:
Hubble is an optical telescope used by scientists to study the structure of
the Universe.

On the other hand:
SETI scientists use radio telescopes (and optical now) to search the Galaxy
for other intelligent civilizations.

Now where is the money going? Not to SETI!!

SETI is a real, real, long, long, shot --- the outcome is very uncertain...
But if SETI finds something, even a tiny hint, then wow!

I think SETI scientists need to "fess up" how much of a "long shot" it is.

Forget the Drake Equation, just determine what are the odds of detecting a
signal out there. What are the odds that seti@home will find a signal if we
assume there really IS someone transmitting? What are the odds that the SETI
Institute's Project Phoenix will detect a signal if there is a radar out
there pinging away "day and night" on some planet 800 LY's away? :-)
Project META searched for 5 years and they found nothing! Is that because
the "odds" are so poor or is it because "there really isn't anyone out there
within META's effective search area"?

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.

Well, in talking to you, I think I clarified things in my own mind ... SETI
is fine, it is a science, but the trouble is that it is "a very long
shot" --- I think many people in general understand that in some way and as
a result only a minimal amount of funding finds its way to SETI research...
that makes sense to me ...

But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Radio/radar transmissions _could_ be very easy to detect --- if they were
there and you knew where to look!! That's the trouble "if they were there"
and "knowing where to look" and knowing "when to look" ... However, I
think, even if they were there and transmitting, they would still be very
difficult to detect depending on how much source power they use, their
distance from us, and the frequency band they use.

The planet may have all kinds of intelligent life but the intelligence that
builds radio telescopes might not develop until millions of more years have
passed.

They could be an ancient civilization and long ago abandoned radio
communication, and our odds of detecting them would be almost zero...


Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

I don't think so, because, well, SETI is a long shot with very poor odds of
detection ... that has been the problem all along ... how poor are the odds
exactly ... that is my question ... and that is the question the SETI
scientists meeting at Harvard on 7 August should ask and answer ...

Al


If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...
Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the
lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or
a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking
about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than
the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are
other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on
Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue
obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there
perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe
of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it
too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I
would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I
feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though
will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public
viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method
you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home
24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any
little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the
subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building
challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and
look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule
the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by
education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is
true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe
that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain
about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &
Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about
extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly
way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they
would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be
glad
to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,
and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to
seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute
is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I
take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I
think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI)
make(makes)
it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost
thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Well, a science without a subject is not really a science except in
terms of the science of the search strategy and the medium itself (FFT,
electromagnetic spectrum, the sorts of signals we might hope to find).
All sort of other sciences (from archaeology to zoology) employ search
strategies but are aided with the benefits of finding things, confirming
theories, etc.

If SETI regularly found signals, and we decoded some of them with a
lexicon, etc. then we'd have HUGE science on our hands, not just the
science of a search strategy.

Science isn't just a search. Someone goes out on a sampling expedition
and uncovers a dinosaur skeleton. An amateur could have just as easily
done this. But to describe it as a new species, excavate and
reconstruct it -- that's where the scientist makes his grand entry. And
to publish, get the award, pad his vitae, and get more funding for the
next cycle -- that's the expectation of the scientist.


Rob Dekker wrote:
I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...

Jason,


"Jason H." wrote in message

hlink.net...

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:

Bruno,



"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

le.com...


Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.


Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI

facility

(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home

24/7

they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little

green

men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)


It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get

serious

support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the

dedicated

few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....




If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is

true,

but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &

Europa

and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about

extra-solar

planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad

to

hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,

and

much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to

seti@home

more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I

think

it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)

it

to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Rob,

"Rob Dekker" wrote in message
. ..
I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien' to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the
way that other space explorations are seen as science.

It is all very odd. I would think that the search for other life in the
Galaxy (or Universe) would have much higher priority. To me, SETI is even
more meaningful than, for example, what Hubble does. Yet billions have been
spent on Hubble and all the studies & analysis surrounding it. Yet virtually
not a pitance for SETI. Yet if SETI succeeds it would be more mindboggling
than anything received from Huibble so far. It is all so odd!

Perhaps you are right in saying SETI is not a science, but then what of
Hubble? It is a search too --- an optical search of the Universe --- a step
in learning more and more detail about the structure of the Universe.

If it wasn't for the fact that SETI is searching for "electronmagnetic
radiation (signals) from other intelligent civilizations" then SETI would
just be "radio astronomy" ...

I stand by my earliar statement that SETI is out on the fringes of science
("fringe science") and as such does not get alot of respect in general.
Everyone is interested in finding signs of other intelligent life "out
there", but they'd rather put their money somewhere else ...


When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

But how does it differ from Hubble for example?

On the one hand:
Hubble is an optical telescope used by scientists to study the structure of
the Universe.

On the other hand:
SETI scientists use radio telescopes (and optical now) to search the Galaxy
for other intelligent civilizations.

Now where is the money going? Not to SETI!!

SETI is a real, real, long, long, shot --- the outcome is very uncertain...
But if SETI finds something, even a tiny hint, then wow!

I think SETI scientists need to "fess up" how much of a "long shot" it is.

Forget the Drake Equation, just determine what are the odds of detecting a
signal out there. What are the odds that seti@home will find a signal if we
assume there really IS someone transmitting? What are the odds that the SETI
Institute's Project Phoenix will detect a signal if there is a radar out
there pinging away "day and night" on some planet 800 LY's away? :-)
Project META searched for 5 years and they found nothing! Is that because
the "odds" are so poor or is it because "there really isn't anyone out there
within META's effective search area"?

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.

Well, in talking to you, I think I clarified things in my own mind ... SETI
is fine, it is a science, but the trouble is that it is "a very long
shot" --- I think many people in general understand that in some way and as
a result only a minimal amount of funding finds its way to SETI research...
that makes sense to me ...

But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Radio/radar transmissions _could_ be very easy to detect --- if they were
there and you knew where to look!! That's the trouble "if they were there"
and "knowing where to look" and knowing "when to look" ... However, I
think, even if they were there and transmitting, they would still be very
difficult to detect depending on how much source power they use, their
distance from us, and the frequency band they use.

The planet may have all kinds of intelligent life but the intelligence that
builds radio telescopes might not develop until millions of more years have
passed.

They could be an ancient civilization and long ago abandoned radio
communication, and our odds of detecting them would be almost zero...


Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

I don't think so, because, well, SETI is a long shot with very poor odds of
detection ... that has been the problem all along ... how poor are the odds
exactly ... that is my question ... and that is the question the SETI
scientists meeting at Harvard on 7 August should ask and answer ...

Al


If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...
Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the
lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or
a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking
about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than
the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are
other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on
Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue
obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there
perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe
of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it
too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I
would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I
feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though
will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public
viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method
you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home
24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any
little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the
subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building
challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and
look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule
the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by
education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is
true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe
that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain
about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &
Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about
extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly
way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they
would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be
glad
to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,
and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to
seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute
is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I
take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I
think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI)
make(makes)
it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost
thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...
Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home
24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is
true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &
Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about
extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad
to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,
and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to
seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I
think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)
it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.