How Do I: Polar align when I can't see Polaris?

OK. The obvious answer here is I don't, at least with any accuracy.

I left the telescope inside tonight. There were high level clouds to
the north and I couldn't make out Polaris. I considered taking the
telescope out anyway but left it inside and am settling for
Binoculars. That brought up the question about how to polar align
when I couldn't make out Polaris.

I had some thoughts. First, I could get a good polar alignment and
simply make reference marks on both the ground where the tripod was
set (probably drive some tent stakes into the earth) and on the mount.
Then I could recreate at least a rough polar alignment in my most
common viewing location (read, back yard) anytime I wanted.

I could also do it by simply using a compass, correct for the magnetic
deviation at my location, and use my lattitude.

Because I am just starting to explore with the telescope and have been
having "finder scope alignment issues", I decided to pass on the
telescope until I could get a good polar alignment (which I can do
most nights, I should be out tomorrow).

Any other suggestions?

Use star drift in your eyepiece to correct alignment.
Do a rough polar alignment.
Use a star in the south sky at moderate elevation and center it in your
eyepiece, preferably with a crosshair, and with high magnification.

Now start following and see if the star drifts from the center.
Depending on what you use (say a zenithprism) the drift up or down
corresponds to an off setting to either the east or the west.

From the top of my head - with zenithprism: drift down more to the east
and drift up in your eyepiece move your mount more westward.
Please others here correct me if I'm wrong. And _if_ I am, you'll notice
soon enough and you have to reverse my instructions

After you have adapted the mount, center again and start all oveer
again. A few stints and you have a fine alignment.

I had read about this in the telescope manual, but wasn't sure how
valid it was.

From what I could gather, what you are doing is using the error in the
tracking to correct your polar alignment. The manual actually has all
of the directions (up, down, left, and right) and how to correct.
I'll have to play with the geometry until I understand it.

Use star drift in your eyepiece to correct alignment.
Do a rough polar alignment.
Use a star in the south sky at moderate elevation and center it in your
eyepiece, preferably with a crosshair, and with high magnification.

Now start following and see if the star drifts from the center.
Depending on what you use (say a zenithprism) the drift up or down
corresponds to an off setting to either the east or the west.

From the top of my head - with zenithprism: drift down more to the east
and drift up in your eyepiece move your mount more westward.
Please others here correct me if I'm wrong. And _if_ I am, you'll notice
soon enough and you have to reverse my instructions

After you have adapted the mount, center again and start all oveer
again. A few stints and you have a fine alignment.

I had read about this in the telescope manual, but wasn't sure how
valid it was.

From what I could gather, what you are doing is using the error in the
tracking to correct your polar alignment. The manual actually has all
of the directions (up, down, left, and right) and how to correct.
I'll have to play with the geometry until I understand it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

PS II It should be noted that geocentic obliquity
is normally indicated using Astrolog 5.41G w/SWEPH.
By accounting for your altitude above sealevel, we
can determine your parallax to the CNP without ANY
other calculation. That's important to you. Get it?

Daniel Joseph Min

*DOWNLOAD FREEWARE Shadows Sundial Program:
http://web.fc-net.fr/frb/sundials/gb/defaut.htm

*DOWNLOAD FREEWARE Carte du Ciel:
http://www.stargazing.net/astropc/index.html

*DOWNLOAD FULL-FUNCTION DEMO of SkyMap:
http://www.skymap.com/smp_eval.htm
ftp://ftp.ttp.co.uk/smp9eval.exe

*1965 NASA Dictionary of Technical Terms:
(compare modern dictionary definitions)
http://roland.lerc.nasa.gov/~dglover...y/content.html

*Precision Solar System Data:
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/data1.htm#orb
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/data2.htm#phy
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/homepage.htm
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/features...anetsfeat.html
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/phys_props_planets.html
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/elem_planets.html

*Precision ACS Int'l Atlas (Shank's):
http://www.astro.com/cgi/aq.cgi

*Precision Julian-to-Gregorian Dates:
http://www.norbyhus.dk/calendar.html

*Precision US Map Coordinates:
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/default.aspx

*TopoZone (cf. terraserver):
http://www.topozone.com/

*Precision Int'l Map Coordinates:
http://www.maporama.com/share/

*Precision UK Street Maps:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/

*Precision Ancient Babylonian Astronomy:
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb2c.html

*Time Series Analysis & Graphics:
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/time1.html
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/times2.html
*See also:
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/
But be sure to separate facts from opinions,
strict calculations from flights of fantasy;
otherwise, these are very interesting pages.

*Miscellaneous Reference For Periodic Events:
http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/Curtis/astro1.html

*Min's Newsgroup-Archived Home Page On The World Wide Web:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...amesh-frog.org

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you consider the content of this post to be particularly offensive, disgusting or plain illegal,
it is probably 'designer abuse', a message designed specifically to hurt the remailer's reputation/existence.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain
Some people hate this remailer so badly that, for example, they did not hesitate to celebrate the death of 148 French tourists in a plane crash.
Those people seceded from the human race, so don't hesitate to report them directly to the police.
2004/01/03 (contact ) Blue.Jay celebrates
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain
2004/01/19 Len Sassaman chooses that moment to bring his support to Blue.Jay
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

More about the subject will be available http://frogadmin.yi.org/HOS/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

PS II It should be noted that geocentic obliquity
is normally indicated using Astrolog 5.41G w/SWEPH.
By accounting for your altitude above sealevel, we
can determine your parallax to the CNP without ANY
other calculation. That's important to you. Get it?

Daniel Joseph Min

*DOWNLOAD FREEWARE Shadows Sundial Program:
http://web.fc-net.fr/frb/sundials/gb/defaut.htm

*DOWNLOAD FREEWARE Carte du Ciel:
http://www.stargazing.net/astropc/index.html

*DOWNLOAD FULL-FUNCTION DEMO of SkyMap:
http://www.skymap.com/smp_eval.htm
ftp://ftp.ttp.co.uk/smp9eval.exe

*1965 NASA Dictionary of Technical Terms:
(compare modern dictionary definitions)
http://roland.lerc.nasa.gov/~dglover...y/content.html

*Precision Solar System Data:
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/data1.htm#orb
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/data2.htm#phy
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/homepage.htm
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/features...anetsfeat.html
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/phys_props_planets.html
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/elem_planets.html

*Precision ACS Int'l Atlas (Shank's):
http://www.astro.com/cgi/aq.cgi

*Precision Julian-to-Gregorian Dates:
http://www.norbyhus.dk/calendar.html

*Precision US Map Coordinates:
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/default.aspx

*TopoZone (cf. terraserver):
http://www.topozone.com/

*Precision Int'l Map Coordinates:
http://www.maporama.com/share/

*Precision UK Street Maps:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/

*Precision Ancient Babylonian Astronomy:
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb2c.html

*Time Series Analysis & Graphics:
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/time1.html
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/times2.html
*See also:
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/
But be sure to separate facts from opinions,
strict calculations from flights of fantasy;
otherwise, these are very interesting pages.

*Miscellaneous Reference For Periodic Events:
http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/Curtis/astro1.html

*Min's Newsgroup-Archived Home Page On The World Wide Web:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...amesh-frog.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQA/AwUBQCiR2pljD7YrHM/nEQJr8wCgz4b/6M2wl//jQW0oQvW3Ia6UtBMAn02X
tR/hlfhQG64tmkkSsBJ5/OuE
=xq6d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you consider the content of this post to be particularly offensive, disgusting or plain illegal,
it is probably 'designer abuse', a message designed specifically to hurt the remailer's reputation/existence.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain
Some people hate this remailer so badly that, for example, they did not hesitate to celebrate the death of 148 French tourists in a plane crash.
Those people seceded from the human race, so don't hesitate to report them directly to the police.
2004/01/03 (contact ) Blue.Jay celebrates
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain
2004/01/19 Len Sassaman chooses that moment to bring his support to Blue.Jay
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

More about the subject will be available http://frogadmin.yi.org/HOS/

For visual use you don't have to be particularly
well polar aligned to keep a star in the FOV for
an appreciable time. Just plonk the scope down
with your best estimate of where north is, maybe
use a compass.

Adam


--
Eschew obfuscation. Eliminate such idiom previous
to rejoining.
"Edward Smith" wrote in
message
...
OK. The obvious answer here is I don't, at
least with any accuracy.

I left the telescope inside tonight. There were
high level clouds to
the north and I couldn't make out Polaris. I
considered taking the
telescope out anyway but left it inside and am
settling for
Binoculars. That brought up the question about
how to polar align
when I couldn't make out Polaris.

I had some thoughts. First, I could get a good
polar alignment and
simply make reference marks on both the ground
where the tripod was
set (probably drive some tent stakes into the
earth) and on the mount.
Then I could recreate at least a rough polar
alignment in my most
common viewing location (read, back yard)
anytime I wanted.

I could also do it by simply using a compass,
correct for the magnetic
deviation at my location, and use my lattitude.

Because I am just starting to explore with the
telescope and have been
having "finder scope alignment issues", I
decided to pass on the
telescope until I could get a good polar
alignment (which I can do
most nights, I should be out tomorrow).

Any other suggestions?

For visual use you don't have to be particularly
well polar aligned to keep a star in the FOV for
an appreciable time. Just plonk the scope down
with your best estimate of where north is, maybe
use a compass.

Adam


--
Eschew obfuscation. Eliminate such idiom previous
to rejoining.
"Edward Smith" wrote in
message
...
OK. The obvious answer here is I don't, at
least with any accuracy.

I left the telescope inside tonight. There were
high level clouds to
the north and I couldn't make out Polaris. I
considered taking the
telescope out anyway but left it inside and am
settling for
Binoculars. That brought up the question about
how to polar align
when I couldn't make out Polaris.

I had some thoughts. First, I could get a good
polar alignment and
simply make reference marks on both the ground
where the tripod was
set (probably drive some tent stakes into the
earth) and on the mount.
Then I could recreate at least a rough polar
alignment in my most
common viewing location (read, back yard)
anytime I wanted.

I could also do it by simply using a compass,
correct for the magnetic
deviation at my location, and use my lattitude.

Because I am just starting to explore with the
telescope and have been
having "finder scope alignment issues", I
decided to pass on the
telescope until I could get a good polar
alignment (which I can do
most nights, I should be out tomorrow).

Any other suggestions?

I had some thoughts. First, I could get a good polar alignment and
simply make reference marks on both the ground where the tripod was
set (probably drive some tent stakes into the earth) and on the mount. Then I
could recreate at least a rough polar alignment in my most common viewing
location (read, back yard) anytime I wanted.


This is a good idea. If you don't adjust the mount in the interem then this
should be plenty good.

I could also do it by simply using a compass, correct for the magnetic
deviation at my location, and use my lattitude.

Yeah, this would work too....

Because I am just starting to explore with the telescope and have been
having "finder scope alignment issues", I decided to pass on the
telescope until I could get a good polar alignment (which I can do
most nights, I should be out tomorrow).

You might have been able to see Polaris through the clouds with the scope
itself or find in a "sucker hole" in the clouds.

Jon

I had some thoughts. First, I could get a good polar alignment and
simply make reference marks on both the ground where the tripod was
set (probably drive some tent stakes into the earth) and on the mount. Then I
could recreate at least a rough polar alignment in my most common viewing
location (read, back yard) anytime I wanted.


This is a good idea. If you don't adjust the mount in the interem then this
should be plenty good.

I could also do it by simply using a compass, correct for the magnetic
deviation at my location, and use my lattitude.

Yeah, this would work too....

Because I am just starting to explore with the telescope and have been
having "finder scope alignment issues", I decided to pass on the
telescope until I could get a good polar alignment (which I can do
most nights, I should be out tomorrow).

You might have been able to see Polaris through the clouds with the scope
itself or find in a "sucker hole" in the clouds.

Jon

"Edward Smith" wrote in message
...
OK. The obvious answer here is I don't, at least with any accuracy.

I left the telescope inside tonight. There were high level clouds to
the north and I couldn't make out Polaris. I considered taking the
telescope out anyway but left it inside and am settling for
Binoculars. That brought up the question about how to polar align
when I couldn't make out Polaris.
Worth remembering, that Polaris, is only a 'starting point' anyway. It
allows you (with a good polar scope), to get within a few fractions of a
degree. Hence the process is iterative. Normally you start from the
'Polaris' reference, and then improve the accuracy by drift alignment. All
that not being able to see Polaris does, is potentially degrade the
'starting point'

I had some thoughts. First, I could get a good polar alignment and
simply make reference marks on both the ground where the tripod was
set (probably drive some tent stakes into the earth) and on the mount.
Then I could recreate at least a rough polar alignment in my most
common viewing location (read, back yard) anytime I wanted.

I could also do it by simply using a compass, correct for the magnetic
deviation at my location, and use my lattitude.
Yes. Either method will give you a starting point, that is nearly as good as
Polaris (may even be better...). One route for instance, is where there is a
fixed site, is to drift align, then mark the tripod leg positions, and then
if there are landmarks visible on the horizon, observe the
eyepiece/viewfinder view of the horizon, with a fixed RA/Dec reading. If you
reposition, and adjust to have the same view, the starting point will be
better than Polaris offers.
With a good compass/level, allowing for magnetic deviation, it is possible
to easily get a good starting point.

Because I am just starting to explore with the telescope and have been
having "finder scope alignment issues", I decided to pass on the
telescope until I could get a good polar alignment (which I can do
most nights, I should be out tomorrow).

Any other suggestions?
Everyone in the southern hemisphere, faces this all the time. There are
quite a few articles on the web about setup in these locations.

Best Wishes