Group 5 astronauts and Apollo

Could the Apollo program (not counting Skylab and ASTP) have been
completed without the group 5 astronauts?

It was mainly the group 2 and group 3 astronauts that got us to the
Moon. Nine of the 19 group 5 astronauts were fortunate enough to have
their first flight take them to the Moon. And for eight of those
nine, it was their only flight. The group 2 astronauts and group 3
astronauts except for Anders and Bean that went to the Moon had
previous flights and had been in the program longer.

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:52:44 -0400, Jan Philips
wrote:

It was mainly the group 2 and group 3 astronauts that got us to the
Moon.

And a small number from group 1 and group 4 were also available.

On 21/09/2012 03:52, Jan Philips wrote:

Could the Apollo program (not counting Skylab and ASTP) have been
completed without the group 5 astronauts?

Possibly, but it would have been a very different program and it might
have been impossible to meet the 'end of this decade' deadline.

It was mainly the group 2 and group 3 astronauts that got us to the
Moon. Nine of the 19 group 5 astronauts were fortunate enough to have
their first flight take them to the Moon. And for eight of those
nine, it was their only flight. The group 2 astronauts and group 3
astronauts except for Anders and Bean that went to the Moon had
previous flights and had been in the program longer.

You said not counting Skylab (and ASTP, but that was a very late
addition), but when G5 were being recruited (early 1966) Skylab (then
known as AES/AAP) was anticipated to fly several missions in
Earth orbit, lunar orbit and extended-stay lunar surface. So, the G5
guys were needed for both Apollo and 'Skylab'. It was felt that the
lunar-landing missions were more demanding and only the best astronauts
were destined for those missions. In Deke Slayton's view, 'the best'
essentially meant those with test pilot experience.

It is well documented that, for example, Slayton was planning to
transfer White, Chaffee, Eisele & Cunningham to AAP after 'Apollo 1'.
He did assign Bean to AAP before needing him for Apollo 12. He had
'no plans' for Cooper after Gemini 5.

Before Gemini got going Slayton (and others) came up with the crew
plan where a crew first served as backup for a mission (let's call it
mission A), then became prime crew for mission D (skipping missions B
& C). This worked well in Gemini and was carried forward to Apollo
(the Block I missions were not part of that pattern). In Apollo this
system meant that crews for three missions were all training for
missions at the same time - 6 astronauts per mission, a total of 18
astronauts.

In the dark days of Feb 1967 NASA had precisely 19 astronauts from
groups 1-3 who could be considered active (excludes Cooper & Shepard).
Within a few months they would lose another (CC Williams). Eighteen
was barely enough - we see that Slayton was obliged to bring Cooper
back to serve as backup commander for Apollo 10 for example.

Before the fire several G5 astronauts were assigned as support crew
for the first three manned Apollos. Without them, even at the stage,
the workload on the prime and backup crews would have been even heavier.

It was always anticipated that astronauts would leave the program so
planning required the addition of group 5.

The scaling back of AAP and eventual development of Skylab led to a
small surplus of qualified G5 guys. Once the Kennedy goal had been
achieved those astronauts were brought into prime and backup crews
with some of the G2/G3 men being 'moved aside'.

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 09:04:30 +0100, Brian Lawrence
wrote:

Possibly, but it would have been a very different program and it might
have been impossible to meet the 'end of this decade' deadline.

But none of group 5 flew until A13.

It is well documented that, for example, Slayton was planning to
transfer White, Chaffee, Eisele & Cunningham to AAP after 'Apollo 1'.
He did assign Bean to AAP before needing him for Apollo 12. He had
'no plans' for Cooper after Gemini 5.

Cooper was to be the commander of A14 until he got bumped for Shepard.

Eighteen
was barely enough - we see that Slayton was obliged to bring Cooper
back to serve as backup commander for Apollo 10 for example.

You are right.


Before the fire several G5 astronauts were assigned as support crew
for the first three manned Apollos. Without them, even at the stage,
the workload on the prime and backup crews would have been even heavier.

It was always anticipated that astronauts would leave the program so
planning required the addition of group 5.

But I wonder if some vetrans left because there were so many "new
guys" waiting to go, that they thought it would be a long time before
they got another flight (if ever).

On 21/09/2012 18:14, Jan Philips wrote:
On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 09:04:30 +0100, Brian Lawrence
wrote:

Possibly, but it would have been a very different program and it might
have been impossible to meet the 'end of this decade' deadline.

But none of group 5 flew until A13.

It is well documented that, for example, Slayton was planning to
transfer White, Chaffee, Eisele & Cunningham to AAP after 'Apollo 1'.
He did assign Bean to AAP before needing him for Apollo 12. He had
'no plans' for Cooper after Gemini 5.

Cooper was to be the commander of A14 until he got bumped for Shepard.

No he wasn't. At least not in the minds of Slayton, Shepard and NASA
bosses.

Eighteen
was barely enough - we see that Slayton was obliged to bring Cooper
back to serve as backup commander for Apollo 10 for example.

You are right.

And if Deke hadn't been short of candidates as b/u CDR for 10, Gordo
would never have been talked of as a potential CDR for 13. Having been
given the chance to impress as b/u CDR on 10, he failed to do so.

To illustrate the point about Cooper being a 'last resort' to backup 10.
The crews for 10 began training on Dec 02 1968, shortly before Apollo
8 flew. Commanders in training we

AS08 Borman Armstrong (b/u)
AS09 McDivitt Conrad (b/u)
AS10 Stafford Cooper (b/u)

Apart from Cooper all were from G2, there were no G1 guys left (Schirra
was retiring after AS07, Shepard & Slayton were still grounded). There
were two remaining G2 astronauts (Lovell & Young) both of whom were
assigned as CMPs (Lovell to AS08 & Young to AS10). At that time no G3
astronaut was qualified to be an Apollo CDR, and only four ever did
qualify (Scott, Cernan, Collins & Gordon), all four were in the above
crews too. Al Bean got to command an Apollo in Skylab and he was on
Conrad's crew above.

Luckily for Slayton, his buddy, Al Shepard, had undergone surgery in
May 1968 and was cleared to return to flight status in March 1969,
some six months before what became the Apollo 14 crew started training.

Before the fire several G5 astronauts were assigned as support crew
for the first three manned Apollos. Without them, even at the stage,
the workload on the prime and backup crews would have been even heavier.

It was always anticipated that astronauts would leave the program so
planning required the addition of group 5.

But I wonder if some vetrans left because there were so many "new
guys" waiting to go, that they thought it would be a long time before
they got another flight (if ever).

Yes, although really only those who flew before Apollo 11. Some were
'pensioned off' to Skylab (Cunningham, Schweickhart), One (Anders) was
offered a CMP flight, but having trained as LMP wanted to fly the LM.
McDivitt was sort of offered the LMP position on Shepard's crew but
having flown two missions as CDR wasn't exactly keen. Stafford took
over Shepard's role, before coming back for ASTP. Borman and Collins
had had enough and wanted to retire anyway.

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:00:58 +0100, Brian Lawrence
wrote:

No he wasn't. At least not in the minds of Slayton, Shepard and NASA
bosses. ...

You are right.

Yes, although really only those who flew before Apollo 11. Some were
'pensioned off' to Skylab (Cunningham, Schweickhart), One (Anders) was
offered a CMP flight, but having trained as LMP wanted to fly the LM.

That makes sense. He had already been around the Moon on A8, so he
would want to land.

McDivitt was sort of offered the LMP position on Shepard's crew but
having flown two missions as CDR wasn't exactly keen.

One other restriction I got to thinking about later was the positions
to fill. Someone who had been to the Moon but not landed would want
to land. Slayton didn't want to use the same CDR more than once. So
there were probably several CMPs that wanted to be on the LM and LMPs
that wanted to be CDRs. Without going through the details, that
probably leaves a shortage of CMPs unless you pull from group 5
(although several of them became LMPs).

On 22/09/2012 18:19, Jan Philips wrote:
On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:00:58 +0100, Brian Lawrence
wrote:

No he wasn't. At least not in the minds of Slayton, Shepard and NASA
bosses. ...

You are right.

Yes, although really only those who flew before Apollo 11. Some were
'pensioned off' to Skylab (Cunningham, Schweickhart), One (Anders) was
offered a CMP flight, but having trained as LMP wanted to fly the LM.

That makes sense. He had already been around the Moon on A8, so he
would want to land.

McDivitt was sort of offered the LMP position on Shepard's crew but
having flown two missions as CDR wasn't exactly keen.

One other restriction I got to thinking about later was the positions
to fill. Someone who had been to the Moon but not landed would want
to land. Slayton didn't want to use the same CDR more than once. So
there were probably several CMPs that wanted to be on the LM and LMPs
that wanted to be CDRs. Without going through the details, that
probably leaves a shortage of CMPs unless you pull from group 5
(although several of them became LMPs).

Deke had 'rules' regarding crew selection, one of which concerned CMPs.
If the mission involved docking (IE all except Apollo 7), the CMP should
have previous spaceflight experience of at least rendezvous and
preferably docking as well. This was why, for example, when Mike Collins
was removed from the Borman crew because he needed an operation, he was
replaced by Jin Lovell from the backup crew, AND the LMP from the backup
crew (Buzz) was moved to CMP, with the new LMP, Haise, replacing Buzz.
However, by the time 11 had proved that landings were possible enough
was known to be able to abandon that rule - in effect from 13.

If they had not felt able to allow rookie CMPs to fly, the pool of
qualified CMPs was effectively empty. Deke had pre-selected his chosen
CMPs back in 1964, choosing five G3 astronauts to fly as pilots on the
last five Gemini missions - Dave Scott (GT8), Charlie Bassett (GT9),
Mike Collins (GT10), Dick Gordon (GT11) & Ted Freeman (GT12). Sadly
two of the five lost their lives before getting their chance, and
Slayton was forced to slot in two of his perceived 'weaker' guys,
Cernan & Aldrin. Although they were, in theory, qualified as CMPs
they were assigned as LMPs, with two G2 guys recycled as CMPs instead
(Lovell & Young). This reshuffling ended with two Apollo crews where
all three had spaceflight experience, the critical flights of Apollo
10 and 11.

As with G3 Slayton divided his G5 guys into those with more relevant
experience (test pilots) and those without. The former were assigned to
CM and the latter to LM. This became clear when the support crews were
announced for early Apollo missions, Block I (no LM) missions had three
CM specialists while missions which included a LM had 2 or 3 LM specialists.

Before the fire there were three crews in training, initially the first
two were for Block I missions, but later that was changed to a single
Block I, with the other crews pointing at early Block II. If we think
of these as Apollo 1, 2 & 3, the support crews we

CM LM
Apollo 1 Ron Evans
Ed Givens
Jack Swigert

Apollo 2 Al Worden Ed Mitchell
Fred Haise

Apollo 3 Ken Mattingly John Bull
Jerry Carr

After the fire these three missions became Apollo 7, 8 & 9 (8 & 9
swapping over later). The support crews stayed the same until June
1967 when Ed Givens lost his life in an off-duty car accident. His
place in the A7 support crew went to Bill Pogue (also CM).

Mike Collins' surgery promoted Fred Haise to b/u LMP for Apollo 8,
his support crew position was filled by Jack Lousma (LM).

Early in 1968 Bull became medically disqualified from what was then
Apollo 9. Perhaps as a sign of the impending AS8/9 swap, he was replaced
by Vance Brand (CM).

Ed Mitchell was promoted to the Apollo 10 b/u crew, with his position
going to Stu Roosa (CM not LM).

Apollo 10 introduced three more support crew, all of whom were LM
specialists - Joe Engle, Jim Irwin & Charlie Duke.

After Apollos 7, 8 & 9 flew, some support crew were reassigned to
Apollos 11, 12 & 13:

AS11 Evans, Pogue, Mattingly (all CM)
AS12 Paul Weitz (CM); Jerry Carr (LM)
AS13 Brand, Pogue (CM); Lousma (LM)

Ken Mattingly was assigned to 'shadow' the backup CMP, Bill Anders,
who was leaving NASA. Jack Swigert was added to the support crew as
an extra member.

From Apollo 12 G4 scientist astronauts were also assigned to support
roles, and gradually took over for later missions, with men from G6
(scientists) and G7 (ex-MOL) coming in too.

Apollo 14 was the last mission with G5 support:

Pogue (CM), Bruce McCandless (LM)

The only G5 astronaut who didn't get a support crew position appears to
have been Don Lind, but he did work with Jack Schmitt on early
development of ALSEP deployment procedures, so he was almost certainly
more of an LM specialist. He was more of a scientist than pilot, and
later, together with McCandless, became a Mission Specialist astronaut
and flew on the Shuttle.

Stu Roosa didn't serve on any other support crews, but together with
Mitchell was chosen as prime for Apollo 14 - effectively replacing Donn
Eisele from the AS10 b/u crew, who was basically 'fired'.

Jerry Carr was heavily involved in the development of the Lunar Rover.

Joe Engle was the original LMP for Apollo 17, but lost his place when
Jack Schmitt, a geologist, was brought in.

Vance Brand would have been the CMP on Apollo 18 if it had not been
cancelled (with Gordon & Schmitt).

The AS 16 backup crew, looking to fly Apollo 19, were Haise (CDR),
Pogue (CMP) & Carr (LMP). When 19 was cancelled they were reassigned to
Skylab (except Haise), after about 6 months training.

Apollo 20 was effectively cancelled in 1969, so any crews would be
highly speculative. Pete Conrad has been mentioned, but he was soon
told that no one would get a second mission, and decided to move to
Skylab. The most likely candidates for CMP/LMP were Paul Weitz & Jack
Lousma, both of whom also went on to fly in Skylab (both as CMP).

Vance Brand went on to fly as CMP on ASTP.

Mattingly, Brand, Weitz, Lousma, Engle, McCandless & Lind all flew on
the Space Shuttle (Fred Haise flew Enterprise on its ALT flights).

I apologise for going over old ground :-)

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 10:14:16 +0100, Brian Lawrence
wrote:

I apologise for going over old ground :-)

Thank you. Many of these details are new to me, and quite
interesting.

....Frack me running! There's a thread on ssh that actually *DEALS* with space history?

Jan, you and Brian have brought a tear to my eyes

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 12:19:33 PM UTC-5, Jan Philips wrote:

Without going through the details, that
probably leaves a shortage of CMPs unless you pull from group 5
although several of them became LMPs).

....Actually, Pete, Al and Dick had an answer for this one: Just fly the All-Navy crew for the rest of the missions, only rotate who sits in what seat. In other words, fly A13 with the CDR-LMP-CMP of Al, Dick and Pete, then A14 with Dick, Pete and Al, then A15 with...well, you get the picture. And while I'd be the last to deny any of the later crews their earned place in history(*), considering the success of A12, - cameras and lightning notwithstanding - one honestly can't argue with their logic.

OM

(*)And yeah, this means I side against Jim McDivitt in his little last-minute crusade to have Geno Cernan replaced following his chopper mishap. A lot of us old hands have discussed this over the years, and while nothing concrete has ever been uncovered, the anal-retentive stance that McDivitt took - even going so far as to resign from his administrative position in protest - belied some sort of animosity between the two.

On Sunday, September 23, 2012 4:13:44 AM UTC-5, Brian Lawrence wrote:
On 22/09/2012 18:19, Jan Philips wrote:

On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:00:58 +0100, Brian Lawrence

That makes sense. [Anders] had already been around the Moon on A8, so he
would want to land.

....The other thing Deke could have done was essentially make him the same promise as he made Mike Collins: you've been around once, we're in a bind, and if you fly CMP for this mission, you'll be guaranteed a CDR and a landing. I'll now pause while the two of you wrestle with *that* particular pair of jokers from the deck.

McDivitt was sort of offered the LMP position on Shepard's crew but
having flown two missions as CDR wasn't exactly keen.

....Both Smilin' Al and McDivitt have gone on record that this was a friendly but slightly sarcastic joke made by Al concerning Al's selection of two rookies to fly with him on the then-A13 flight that was taken out of context..

If the mission involved docking (IE all except Apollo 7)

....Last I looked, the Apollo Flight Journal hadn't gotten their transcripts done to that point in the mission, but ISTR that what ruled out either Eisley or Cunningham was the fact that what little docking sim maneuvers were performed were done by Wally. Not to knock the AFJ team by one nano-iota, but after nearly a decade you think they'd finally get around to transcribing the First Space Mutiny so we could all finally get to read Wally, Walt and What's-His-Name's side of the story?

Slayton was forced to slot in two of his perceived 'weaker' guys,
Cernan & Aldrin. Although they were, in theory, qualified as CMPs

....See my previous comments regarding Cernan and McDivitt. Again, with Deke no longer with us, and AFAIK any notes and/or official reports regarding Astronaut qualifications and/or lack thereof, having been released for public review, we can only speculate on just what made one Astronaut "weaker" than another one.

Of course, YMMV on the "not yet released" part for Gordo Cooper :/

The support crews stayed the same until June
1967 when Ed Givens lost his life in an off-duty car accident.

....One interesting fact about Givens was that after his passing, a series of petitions were filed by numerous Boy Scout troops - Givens had been a Scout and a lifelong supporter of that organization - for the BSA to award Givens a posthumous Eagle Scout award. Nothing ever came of it, and based on my own experiences with Scouting in the early 70s, as well as some other rather d-u-m-b decisions they're currently making, I can understand why. Just verifies my decision to help the kids in the three local troops around my parents' house by being what was sorely lacked during the late 80s and most of the 90s: Merit Badge counseling. And I made godsdamned sure that the little *******s learned and earned every single stinking one of those badges, starting with First Aid, Space Exploration, the three Citizenship badges, and if they were *really* on top of their stuff, we'd go for Basketweaving.

Then again, if they screwed up, they still got Basketweaving. :P


Early in 1968 Bull became medically disqualified from what was then
Apollo 9.

....In all fairness, Bull's career wasn't exactly devoid of stellar achievements. To swipe from the Writ of Common Plagiarism:

"After receiving his Ph. D., Bull returned to NASA and worked at the Ames Research Center from 1973 to 1985, where he conducted simulation and flight test research in advanced flight systems for both helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. From 1986 until his retirement in 1989, he managed NASA-wide research programs in autonomous systems technology for space applications. He maintained an office at NASA Ames until at least 1997."

....And around the time Lind left NASA, some of the NASA guys who were around in the group's early days said that he still had an office at Ames as late as 1998. I couldn't dig up the posts to that effect - thank you Google for not maintaining the integrity of those DejaNews backups - but 1998 was what was reported around here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Bull

Ken Mattingly was assigned to 'shadow' the backup CMP, Bill Anders,
who was leaving NASA.

....Confusion point here, Brian: IIRC, Anders didn't announce his leaving NASA until after A8 had flown and returned. Nixon didn't offer him the NASA ExSec position until just before he was sworn in, and that was when Anders made it official he was leaving to accept the post. Possibly one of the few Nixon appointees who managed to survive Nixon's post-Watergate debacle without any fallout.

Then again, he was on the AEC and the first chairman of the NRC, so YMMV on the fallout issue...:/


The only G5 astronaut who didn't get a support crew position appears to
have been Don Lind, but he did work with Jack Schmitt on early
development of ALSEP deployment procedures

....My understanding is that Lind's work with Schmitt was only on EASEP and not the ALSEP packages.

I apologise for going over old ground :-)

....Apollogize? Perish the thought, Brian. This is the type of discussions that George Herbert founded this group upon! Pat will be sorry he missed out on this one, as the crew roster debates were some of his more favored topics in space history.




OM