First on the Moon: The Untold Story

Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3 years ago
but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a somewhat
sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on the problems
encountered during the mission (the program alarms during descent, the
delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and the breaking of the ascent
engine arm switch) though they also threw in the sighting of the SLA panel.
The impression that came across was that it was more by luck than anything
else that the flight was a success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked because
in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go into operation,
whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only half a second. The
person who said this was David Baker, author of several books on the space
programme, who could in no way be described as a kook. Was he right on this
occasion, and if so why hasn't more been made of it?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3 years
ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a somewhat
sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on the
problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms during
descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and the breaking
of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also threw in the sighting
of the SLA panel. The impression that came across was that it was more
by luck than anything else that the flight was a success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go
into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only
half a second. The person who said this was David Baker, author of
several books on the space programme, who could in no way be described
as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so why hasn't more been
made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully. I think you are right about that part of the documentary
as being sensational.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3 years
ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a somewhat
sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on the problems
encountered during the mission (the program alarms during descent, the
delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and the breaking of the ascent
engine arm switch) though they also threw in the sighting of the SLA
panel. The impression that came across was that it was more by luck than
anything else that the flight was a success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go into
operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only half a
second. The person who said this was David Baker, author of several books
on the space programme, who could in no way be described as a kook. Was
he right on this occasion, and if so why hasn't more been made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver prior
to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once successfully.

Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught fire.
Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to be triggered.

The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later in the
launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.

I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.

The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine arm
switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it was
spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that was
something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I don't
think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

GordonD wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3
years ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a
somewhat sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on
the problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms
during descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and
the breaking of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also threw
in the sighting of the SLA panel. The impression that came across was
that it was more by luck than anything else that the flight was a
success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go
into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only
half a second. The person who said this was David Baker, author of
several books on the space programme, who could in no way be
described as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so why
hasn't more been made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully.

Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught
fire. Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to be
triggered.

The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later in
the launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.

I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.

The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine
arm switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it
was spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that
was something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I
don't think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!

I'm not sure how or why they inadvertently over flew the intended
landing location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ...

GordonD wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3
years ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a somewhat
sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on the
problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms during
descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and the
breaking of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also threw in the
sighting of the SLA panel. The impression that came across was that it
was more by luck than anything else that the flight was a success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go
into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only
half a second. The person who said this was David Baker, author of
several books on the space programme, who could in no way be described
as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so why hasn't more
been made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully.

Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught fire.
Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to be
triggered.

The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later in
the launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.

I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.

The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine
arm switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it
was spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that
was something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I
don't think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!

I'm not sure how or why they inadvertently over flew the intended landing
location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken


They overflew the landing zone because Armstrong spotted more boulders
than they thought and wanted a clearer area to land.

As for the broken switch. I recall an interview with Armstrong where he was
asked what he would do if the ascent engine didn't fire and they only had 2
hours of O2 left. It was clear the interviewer was looking for some sort of
philosophical answer. Armstrong's answer was far more pragmatic and was
along the lines of "I'd spend the next 2 hours trying to fix it."


--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:24:53 +0100, "GordonD"
wrote:


The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine arm
switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it was
spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that was
something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I don't
think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!

I was working on the program at the time. The engine arm breaker was
accidently damaged by being hit by one of the crew members donning or
removing his PLSS. It was mechanical damage - but they could use their
pen to push the breaker in. The problem was once in they may not be
able to turn it off. This breaker provided power to the engine firing
circuit. With it off the LM computers could not fire the engine as a
result of a computer malfunction.

However there were otherways to provide power to the engine solenoids
- the Abort/abort stage button command had a backup arming path. There
were various versions of what the astronauts actually did - but
pressing the abort/abort stage button and the engine on button at the
time the guidance computer was to issue the engine fire command both
would have enabled the engine to fire, along with the breaker puched
in with the pen..

Remember LM was designed with many backup modes to assure success.
Supposidly Armstrong had a restless night - the engineers on the
ground knew the procedures would work.

Val Kraut

Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ...

GordonD wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3
years ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a
somewhat sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing
on the problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms
during descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and
the breaking of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also
threw in the sighting of the SLA panel. The impression that came
across was that it was more by luck than anything else that the
flight was a success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to
go into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in
only half a second. The person who said this was David Baker,
author of several books on the space programme, who could in no way
be described as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so
why hasn't more been made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the
nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully.

Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught
fire. Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to
be triggered.

The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later
in the launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.

I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.

The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent
engine arm switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in
reality it was spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply
decided that was something they'd have to fix later. There was
certainly no panic - I don't think *anything* would cause Armstrong
to panic!

I'm not sure how or why they inadvertently over flew the intended
landing location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken


They overflew the landing zone because Armstrong spotted more
boulders than they thought and wanted a clearer area to land.

That's not quite what I have heard, let me quote from wiki Apollo 11,

"As the descent began, Armstrong and Aldrin found that they were passing
landmarks on the surface 4 seconds early and reported that they were
"long": they would land miles west of their target point."

You might find a better ref.
It was that 4 seconds that nearly mucked things up. After the landing
it was never mentioned much.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ...

Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ...

GordonD wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3
years ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a
somewhat sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on
the problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms
during descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and
the breaking of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also threw
in the sighting of the SLA panel. The impression that came across was
that it was more by luck than anything else that the flight was a
success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go
into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only
half a second. The person who said this was David Baker, author of
several books on the space programme, who could in no way be
described as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so why
hasn't more been made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the
nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully.

Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught
fire. Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to be
triggered.

The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later in
the launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.

I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.

The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent
engine arm switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in
reality it was spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply
decided that was something they'd have to fix later. There was
certainly no panic - I don't think *anything* would cause Armstrong to
panic!

I'm not sure how or why they inadvertently over flew the intended
landing location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken


They overflew the landing zone because Armstrong spotted more boulders
than they thought and wanted a clearer area to land.

That's not quite what I have heard, let me quote from wiki Apollo 11,

"As the descent began, Armstrong and Aldrin found that they were passing
landmarks on the surface 4 seconds early and reported that they were
"long": they would land miles west of their target point."


Hmm, wasn't aware of that quote.

You might find a better ref.
It was that 4 seconds that nearly mucked things up. After the landing
it was never mentioned much.

Interesting. Might be worth perusing Carrying the Fire and some other
sources to confirm.

Thanks.

Ken



--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

On Aug 8, 10:13*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" *wrote in ...

GordonD wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3
years ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a
somewhat sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing
on the problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms
during descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and
the breaking of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also
threw in the sighting of the SLA panel. The impression that came
across was that it was more by luck than anything else that the
flight was a success.

However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to
go into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in
only half a second. The person who said this was David Baker,
author of several books on the space programme, who could in no way
be described as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so
why hasn't more been made of it?

My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the
nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully.

Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught
fire. Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to
be triggered.

The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later
in the launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.

I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.

The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent
engine arm switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in
reality it was spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply
decided that was something they'd have to fix later. There was
certainly no panic - I don't think *anything* would cause Armstrong
to panic!

I'm not sure how or why they inadvertently over flew the intended
landing location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken

* *They overflew the landing zone because Armstrong spotted more
boulders than they thought and wanted a clearer area to land.

That's not quite what I have heard, let me quote from wiki Apollo 11,

"As the descent began, Armstrong and Aldrin found that they were passing
landmarks on the surface 4 seconds early and reported that they were
"long": they would land miles west of their target point."

You might find a better ref.
It was that 4 seconds that nearly mucked things up. After the landing
it was never mentioned much.
Ken

That was due to the delta V induced during the inspection of the LM
after undocking

Me wrote:
On Aug 8, 10:13 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...
GordonD wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
GordonD wrote:
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3
years ago but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a
somewhat sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing
on the problems encountered during the mission (the program alarms
during descent, the delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and
the breaking of the ascent engine arm switch) though they also
threw in the sighting of the SLA panel. The impression that came
across was that it was more by luck than anything else that the
flight was a success.
However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked
because in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to
go into operation, whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in
only half a second. The person who said this was David Baker,
author of several books on the space programme, who could in no way
be described as a kook. Was he right on this occasion, and if so
why hasn't more been made of it?
My thoughts as well.
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the
nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully.
Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught
fire. Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to
be triggered.
The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later
in the launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.
I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
sensational.
The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent
engine arm switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in
reality it was spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply
decided that was something they'd have to fix later. There was
certainly no panic - I don't think *anything* would cause Armstrong
to panic!
I'm not sure how or why they inadvertently over flew the intended
landing location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken
They overflew the landing zone because Armstrong spotted more
boulders than they thought and wanted a clearer area to land.
That's not quite what I have heard, let me quote from wiki Apollo 11,

"As the descent began, Armstrong and Aldrin found that they were passing
landmarks on the surface 4 seconds early and reported that they were
"long": they would land miles west of their target point."

You might find a better ref.
It was that 4 seconds that nearly mucked things up. After the landing
it was never mentioned much.
Ken

That was due to the delta V induced during the inspection of the LM
after undocking

In round figures, using 3600mph = 1 mile/sec, a delay of 4 seconds
causes an over shoot of 4 miles unless the ascent parabola is varied.

Not sure what you mean by a delta V (acceleration) induced AFTER
undocking as they were in freefall after undock, do you mean the
undock itself added the uncorrected delta V?
If you have a net ref, I'd appreciate reading about it.
Thanks though,
Ken