Proof Space Solar Power Can't Compete!

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
-Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society

"Airplanes are interesting toys of no military value."
-Marshal Ferdinand Foch, Ecole Superieure de Guerre, France

"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."
-Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in physics, 1923

"The biggest fool thing we have ever done. The [atom] bomb
will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives."
-ADM William D. Leahy to President Truman

"There is no hope for the fanciful idea of reaching the moon
because of the insurmountable barriers of escaping Earth's gravity."
-Dr. Forest R. Moulton, astronomer

"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future
scientific advances."
-Dr. Lee DeForest, "Father of Radio and Grandfather
of Television"

Said Wilbur Wright, "I confess that in 1901, I said to my brother
Orville that man would not fly for 50 years. Two years later we
ourselves made flights. This demonstration of my impotence
as a prophet gave me such a shock that ever since I have
distrusted myself and avoided all predictions." Orville fared
no better, declaring "No flying machine will ever fly from
New York to Paris . . . [because] no known motor can run
at the requisite speed for four days without stopping."

And this from Vanevar Bush, our own head of defense research
and one of America's most visionary men, testifying to Congress
just after World War II (1945):

"There has been a great deal said about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket.
In my opinion such a thing is impossible for many years. The people
who have been writing these things that annoy me have been talking
about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket shot from one continent to
another, carrying an atomic bomb and so directed as to be a precise
weapon which would land exactly on a certain target, such as a city.
I say, technically, I don't think anyone in the world knows how to
do such a thing, and I feel confident that it will not be done for
a very long period of time to come. . I think we can leave that out
of our thinking."


"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead
in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer
has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only
lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the
new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their
adversaries . . . and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who
do not truly believe in anything new until they have had
actual experience of it."

-Niccolo Machiavelli, 1532

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2012/spring/garretson.pdf






s

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 8:52:07 PM UTC-7, jonathan wrote:
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
-Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society

"Airplanes are interesting toys of no military value."
-Marshal Ferdinand Foch, Ecole Superieure de Guerre, France

"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."
-Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in physics, 1923

"The biggest fool thing we have ever done. The [atom] bomb
will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives."
-ADM William D. Leahy to President Truman

"There is no hope for the fanciful idea of reaching the moon
because of the insurmountable barriers of escaping Earth's gravity."
-Dr. Forest R. Moulton, astronomer

"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future
scientific advances."
-Dr. Lee DeForest, "Father of Radio and Grandfather
of Television"

Said Wilbur Wright, "I confess that in 1901, I said to my brother
Orville that man would not fly for 50 years. Two years later we
ourselves made flights. This demonstration of my impotence
as a prophet gave me such a shock that ever since I have
distrusted myself and avoided all predictions." Orville fared
no better, declaring "No flying machine will ever fly from
New York to Paris . . . [because] no known motor can run
at the requisite speed for four days without stopping."

And this from Vanevar Bush, our own head of defense research
and one of America's most visionary men, testifying to Congress
just after World War II (1945):

"There has been a great deal said about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket.
In my opinion such a thing is impossible for many years. The people
who have been writing these things that annoy me have been talking
about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket shot from one continent to
another, carrying an atomic bomb and so directed as to be a precise
weapon which would land exactly on a certain target, such as a city.
I say, technically, I don't think anyone in the world knows how to
do such a thing, and I feel confident that it will not be done for
a very long period of time to come. . I think we can leave that out
of our thinking."


"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead
in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer
has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only
lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the
new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their
adversaries . . . and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who
do not truly believe in anything new until they have had
actual experience of it."

-Niccolo Machiavelli, 1532

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2012/spring/garretson.pdf






s

perhaps beamed power is what is needed for cheaper
off surface launches. I think the angle for the power would have advantages.

The nuclear power proponents especially those of light water reactors
and current class breeders are fools or worse. Maybe thorium reactors
but.................. Maybe fusion reactors 20 years from now, LOL.

First, I replace most of the housing stock with houses buried in the ground
or at least with R-60 insulation, a batch HW, some solar panels, detached
from the grid, regulated fresh air intake and maybe gas connection to power a fuel cell array.

Coal should stay in ground except for coke as related to steel production.

Oil shouldn't be burned. It should be used for needed plastics and
lubs.

a better designed world............................Trig

On 6/06/2012 1:52 PM, jonathan wrote:
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
-Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society

"Airplanes are interesting toys of no military value."
-Marshal Ferdinand Foch, Ecole Superieure de Guerre, France

"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."
-Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in physics, 1923

"The biggest fool thing we have ever done. The [atom] bomb
will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives."
-ADM William D. Leahy to President Truman

"There is no hope for the fanciful idea of reaching the moon
because of the insurmountable barriers of escaping Earth's gravity."
-Dr. Forest R. Moulton, astronomer

"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future
scientific advances."
-Dr. Lee DeForest, "Father of Radio and Grandfather
of Television"

Said Wilbur Wright, "I confess that in 1901, I said to my brother
Orville that man would not fly for 50 years. Two years later we
ourselves made flights. This demonstration of my impotence
as a prophet gave me such a shock that ever since I have
distrusted myself and avoided all predictions." Orville fared
no better, declaring "No flying machine will ever fly from
New York to Paris . . . [because] no known motor can run
at the requisite speed for four days without stopping."

And this from Vanevar Bush, our own head of defense research
and one of America's most visionary men, testifying to Congress
just after World War II (1945):

"There has been a great deal said about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket.
In my opinion such a thing is impossible for many years. The people
who have been writing these things that annoy me have been talking
about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket shot from one continent to
another, carrying an atomic bomb and so directed as to be a precise
weapon which would land exactly on a certain target, such as a city.
I say, technically, I don't think anyone in the world knows how to
do such a thing, and I feel confident that it will not be done for
a very long period of time to come. . I think we can leave that out
of our thinking."


"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead
in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer
has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only
lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the
new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their
adversaries . . . and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who
do not truly believe in anything new until they have had
actual experience of it."

-Niccolo Machiavelli, 1532

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2012/spring/garretson.pdf


You will notice that all those claims relate to the possibility of doing
something, not to its economics.

There is little doubt that a space power system could be implemented if
there were sufficient motivation. It's not as if there's any part of it
that's a theoretical problem, or even an engineering one.

But economics does raise its head. Will it ever be cheaper to build a
space power system than to build a ground based power system that
delivers the same power? Therein lies the real question.


Sylvia.

On Jun 6, 2:21*am, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 6/06/2012 1:52 PM, jonathan wrote:









"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
* * * *-Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society

"Airplanes are interesting toys of no military value."
* * *-Marshal Ferdinand Foch, Ecole Superieure de Guerre, France

"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."
* * * *-Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in physics, 1923

"The biggest fool thing we have ever done. The [atom] bomb
* *will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives."
* * * * -ADM William D. Leahy to President Truman

"There is no hope for the fanciful idea of reaching the moon
because of the insurmountable barriers of escaping Earth's gravity."
* * *-Dr. Forest R. Moulton, astronomer

"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future
* *scientific advances."
* * * *-Dr. Lee DeForest, "Father of Radio and Grandfather
* * * * *of Television"

Said Wilbur Wright, "I confess that in 1901, I said to my brother
Orville that man would not fly for 50 years. Two years later we
ourselves made flights. This demonstration of my impotence
as a prophet gave me such a shock that ever since I have
distrusted myself and avoided all predictions." Orville fared
no better, declaring "No flying machine will ever fly from
New York to Paris . . . [because] no known motor can run
at the requisite speed for four days without stopping."

And this from Vanevar Bush, our own head of defense research
and one of America's most visionary men, testifying to Congress
just after World War II (1945):

"There has been a great deal said about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket.
In my opinion such a thing is impossible for many years. The people
who have been writing these things that annoy me have been talking
about a 3,000-mile-high angle rocket shot from one continent to
another, carrying an atomic bomb and so directed as to be a precise
weapon which would land exactly on a certain target, such as a city.
I say, technically, I don't think anyone in the world knows how to
do such a thing, and I feel confident that it will not be done for
a very long period of time to come. . I think we can leave that out
of our thinking."

"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead
in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer
has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only
lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the
new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their
adversaries . . . and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who
do not truly believe in anything new until they have had
actual experience of it."

-Niccolo Machiavelli, 1532

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2012/spring/garretson.pdf

You will notice that all those claims relate to the possibility of doing
something, not to its economics.

There is little doubt that a space power system could be implemented if
there were sufficient motivation. It's not as if there's any part of it
that's a theoretical problem, or even an engineering one.

But economics does raise its head. Will it ever be cheaper to build a
space power system than to build a ground based power system that
delivers the same power? Therein lies the real question.

Sylvia.

And that is exactly the point that Jonathan is failing to perceive.
Anything is possible if enough money is thrown at it.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
On 6/06/2012 1:52 PM, jonathan wrote:


"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead
in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer
has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only
lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the
new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their
adversaries . . . and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who
do not truly believe in anything new until they have had
actual experience of it."

-Niccolo Machiavelli, 1532

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2012/spring/garretson.pdf


You will notice that all those claims relate to the possibility of doing
something, not to its economics.

There is little doubt that a space power system could be implemented if
there were sufficient motivation. It's not as if there's any part of it
that's a theoretical problem, or even an engineering one.

But economics does raise its head. Will it ever be cheaper to build a
space power system than to build a ground based power system that delivers
the same power? Therein lies the real question.



Thanks for replying. I think Space Solar Power should change
it's name, to ...wireless power transmission instead.

So shouldn't the question become, why can't anyone think
of all the potential uses for ...wireless...electricity?
And how much it could change the world?

Imagine that...first.

And I realize it's a grandiose goal, however, from studying
the mathematical properties of self-organizing systems
and the ways in which nature creates such magnificence.
There is a direct relationship between the likelihood of
success, and the how far the possibility space has
been stretched.

Let's do the math on how to design the ideal goal
so there can be no mistake. It's not that hard.

Self-Organizing Faq

"The main current scientific theory related to self-organization
is Complexity Theory, which states:"

"Critically interacting components self-organize to form
potentially evolving structures exhibiting a hierarchy
of emergent system properties."
http://calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm


When all the primary system forces are near their own
critical points, at the same time, the system almost can't
help but spring to life. And find the best solution all by
....itself.

Any system begins with just two driving forces, their
static and chaotic attractors. Each must be critically
interacting internally, and with each other.

Critically interacting means to reside near the transition
between it's own opposite forms. Such as water
near boiling is at the transition between entirely
different states of matter, water and vapor.

For the two universal driving forces; static attractor
would represent the tangible or real world facts and
considerations. While the chaotic attractor would
represent the realm of inspiration and imagination.
The real world vs. the possible world.

This leads to several clear requirements for the
ideal goal

1) The level of difficulty from the technological and
business aspects must be just at, but not beyond
their breaking points.

2) The level of potential effects on the future must
also be stretched to their limits, but still barely within
the realm of possibility.

2) The deadline must also be at its critical point.
As ambitious as possible but still within reason.
Climate change/fossil fuels can be that urgent
deadline, btw.

The goal which has the best chance of taking on
a life of it's own, and succeeding beyond all
expectations, is where the technological, economic
and world changing effects, in the shortest time possible
are all set to their absolute breaking points, at the
....same time. In one system, goal or ....Idea!

The ideal goal/idea must be as ambitious, as it is difficult
as it is world changing. All 3 legs at the same time.

Emergent properties are the highest of all.
Ideas are the highest emergent properties known

Mathematically speaking, nothing else I can think of
comes close to Space Solar Power, or even deserves
a grade since few barely get one leg right, at best.

This universal process is easy to see, for instance
with the Internet, computers and democracy all
coming into their own at the...same time, all 3 legs
are forming as we speak. For human history
we live in the moment of moments.

There's never been a better time to think big!



Jonathan


s




Sylvia.

In article ,
says...



Thanks for replying. I think Space Solar Power should change
it's name, to ...wireless power transmission instead.

So shouldn't the question become, why can't anyone think
of all the potential uses for ...wireless...electricity?
And how much it could change the world?


Everyone knows that if you could make what is more correctly termed
'broadcast power' work you would change the world.

For a start the railways (I know, America doesn't 'get' railways, but
the rest of us do) would shift to broadcast power in a moment, right
now they get to spend a fortune on stringing expensive high voltage
lines in places convenient for people to steal them.

The railways have large amounts of space adjacent to their tracks, have
set times when things happen and run, quite literally, on rails. If
broadcast power was practical they'd be using it.

If they can't broadcast power from a railway station to a train how on
earth are they going to get it down from space?

--
William Black

When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.

Il 09/06/2012 19:24, Bill ha scritto:

For a start the railways (I know, America doesn't 'get' railways, but
the rest of us do) would shift to broadcast power in a moment, right
now they get to spend a fortune on stringing expensive high voltage
lines in places convenient for people to steal them.

The railways have large amounts of space adjacent to their tracks, have
set times when things happen and run, quite literally, on rails. If
broadcast power was practical they'd be using it.

If they can't broadcast power from a railway station to a train how on
earth are they going to get it down from space?

so you're advocating the return to steam traction ?

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

In article ,
says...

Il 09/06/2012 19:24, Bill ha scritto:

For a start the railways (I know, America doesn't 'get' railways, but
the rest of us do) would shift to broadcast power in a moment, right
now they get to spend a fortune on stringing expensive high voltage
lines in places convenient for people to steal them.

The railways have large amounts of space adjacent to their tracks, have
set times when things happen and run, quite literally, on rails. If
broadcast power was practical they'd be using it.

If they can't broadcast power from a railway station to a train how on
earth are they going to get it down from space?

so you're advocating the return to steam traction ?

Generating the electric power on the train using diesel fuel or pumping
it down big wires seems to work just fine.

In time I imagine we'll be using vegetable oil of some kind and lower
resistance wire, although not until silver stops being a 'treasure
metal'.

Or they'll use a bloody big capacitor, if someone ever develops one big
enough that is reliable enough.

I very much doubt I'll ever see broadcast power.


--
William Black

When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.

On 10/06/2012 2:53 AM, jonathan wrote:
"Sylvia wrote in message
...
On 6/06/2012 1:52 PM, jonathan wrote:


"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead
in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer
has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only
lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the
new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their
adversaries . . . and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who
do not truly believe in anything new until they have had
actual experience of it."

-Niccolo Machiavelli, 1532

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2012/spring/garretson.pdf


You will notice that all those claims relate to the possibility of doing
something, not to its economics.

There is little doubt that a space power system could be implemented if
there were sufficient motivation. It's not as if there's any part of it
that's a theoretical problem, or even an engineering one.

But economics does raise its head. Will it ever be cheaper to build a
space power system than to build a ground based power system that delivers
the same power? Therein lies the real question.



Thanks for replying. I think Space Solar Power should change
it's name, to ...wireless power transmission instead.

So shouldn't the question become, why can't anyone think
of all the potential uses for ...wireless...electricity?
And how much it could change the world?

Imagine that...first.

But once you've thought of the uses, you can then think about how those
same uses can be achieved in other ways. If there are other ways that
are cheaper, then you use the other ways.

So you still stuck with the underlying problem - space power is not
economically credible.

Sylvia.

Il 09/06/2012 19:33, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:

Thanks for replying. I think Space Solar Power should change
it's name, to ...wireless power transmission instead.


Sorry, but that name is already taken (by, oddly enough, the concept
of wireless power transmission).

indeed, wireless and TV transmitters's performance is measured in Watts,
whose is an unit of power....

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.