Orion Justification

What is the justification behind resurrecting the Orion capsule as a
lifeboat? Normally the vehicle that brings the crew to the station is
also the vehicle that serves as the lifeboat. Reasons I can think of
a
* SpaceX and other commercial players are having trouble making their
capsules last for 6 months in space. Thus their vehicles would come
and go, leaving the crew to rely on the lifeboat.
* An insurance policy in case commercial players fail to provide a
vehicle. In this case NASA could refit the lifeboat with an escape
tower for crew launch.
* A get-ahead for a later full-up deep-space version of Orion.
* A jobs program to placate the recent protests and lobbying.
* A result of huge contract termination penalties which make
completing Orion Lite about the same cost as cancelling it.

Any other ideas?

On Apr 16, 11:30�am, Pat Flannery wrote:
On 4/15/2010 10:16 PM, Neil Fraser wrote:





What is the justification behind resurrecting the Orion capsule as a
lifeboat? �Normally the vehicle that brings the crew to the station is
also the vehicle that serves as the lifeboat. �Reasons I can think of
a
* SpaceX and other commercial players are having trouble making their
capsules last for 6 months in space. �Thus their vehicles would come
and go, leaving the crew to rely on the lifeboat.
* An insurance policy in case commercial players fail to provide a
vehicle. �In this case NASA could refit the lifeboat with an escape
tower for crew launch.
* A get-ahead for a later full-up deep-space version of Orion.
* A jobs program to placate the recent protests and lobbying.
* A result of huge contract termination penalties which make
completing Orion Lite about the same cost as cancelling it.

Any other ideas?

Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three.
So you need two Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one Orion.

Pat- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

2 capsule for evac is better.

What if the part of the station where the evac capsule is located gets
destroyed.

then all the crew die

orion has no launcher.

NASA should do what it should of done on day 1 post columbia.

Use existing delta and atlas heavies!

On 4/15/2010 10:16 PM, Neil Fraser wrote:
What is the justification behind resurrecting the Orion capsule as a
lifeboat? Normally the vehicle that brings the crew to the station is
also the vehicle that serves as the lifeboat. Reasons I can think of
a
* SpaceX and other commercial players are having trouble making their
capsules last for 6 months in space. Thus their vehicles would come
and go, leaving the crew to rely on the lifeboat.
* An insurance policy in case commercial players fail to provide a
vehicle. In this case NASA could refit the lifeboat with an escape
tower for crew launch.
* A get-ahead for a later full-up deep-space version of Orion.
* A jobs program to placate the recent protests and lobbying.
* A result of huge contract termination penalties which make
completing Orion Lite about the same cost as cancelling it.

Any other ideas?

Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three.
So you need two Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one Orion.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three. So you need two
Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one Orion.

Eggs and baskets

rick jones
--
The glass is neither half-empty nor half-full. The glass has a leak.
The real question is "Can it be patched?"
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway...
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...

On Apr 16, 8:30*am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three.
So you need two Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one Orion.

Once Dragon (or one of its competitors) comes online, Russia would
presumably scale back its Soyuz flights so that there is only one
Soyuz docked to the station at any given time. Between one Dragon (7
crew) and one Soyuz (3 crew) I don't see a problem with evacuating the
six people on ISS.

Once upon a time there was a requirement for a dedicated ISS lifeboat
since crew transfer was originally to be handled by Shuttle. Since
the orbiter can't loiter at the station for six months, a separate
vehicle was needed for emergencies. Concepts ranged from (seriously)
confiscating two unflown Apollo vehicles from museums, refurbishing
them and docking them to the station, to the X-38. With the
replacement of Shuttle with vehicles that can be parked at the station
for the duration of its crews' mission, there doesn't seem to be a
need for a dedicated lifeboat.

"Neil Fraser" wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 8:30 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three.
So you need two Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one
Orion.

Once Dragon (or one of its competitors) comes online, Russia would
presumably scale back its Soyuz flights so that there is only one
Soyuz docked to the station at any given time. Between one Dragon (7
crew) and one Soyuz (3 crew) I don't see a problem with evacuating the
six people on ISS.

Dragon will initially be unmanned. Who knows how long it will take SpaceX
to build a manned version which meets NASA's "man-rating" specifications.
Also, not all of Dragon's competitors are intended to (eventually) be
manned.

Mostly the scaled back Orion is there to keep NASA "in" manned spaceflght
until suitable enabling technologies are developed which would allow a
lunar, or Mars, program to go forward in an affordable way. Ares I and Ares
V simply weren't going to cut it from a cost point of view.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

In message tatelephone
Pat Flannery wrote:

On 4/15/2010 10:16 PM, Neil Fraser wrote:

Any other ideas?

Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three.
So you need two Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one Orion.

Although with only one Orion, you *have* to evacuate all the crew
whatever the reason. You lose the option of just returning an injured
crew member and next two in the rotation while leaving the other three
to carry on.

Anthony

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:28:12 -0800, Pat Flannery
wrote:

Once Dragon (or one of its competitors) comes online, Russia would
presumably scale back its Soyuz flights so that there is only one
Soyuz docked to the station at any given time. Between one Dragon (7
crew) and one Soyuz (3 crew) I don't see a problem with evacuating the
six people on ISS.

No, Dragon would make a great lifeboat, and remove the need for using
Orion for that mission.

That assumes Dragon will be able to stay at ISS for 180 days. Will it?
If not, it is just a taxi and we need a lifeboat.

Brian

On Apr 16, 5:40*pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
I hadn't thought of that, but it's a very good point.
The two-Soyuz concept actually makes more sense in that regard.

But this still doesn't addres what the point of the Orion is.

The Russians will continue to service their three cosmonaut slots
using a rotating series of Soyuz craft. So they are accounted for in
terms of evac needs. Once Dragon (or others) comes online, the
Americans will stop using a second Soyuz, and start using a rotating
series of Dragon craft. So they are accounted for in terms of evac
needs.

Who's left? Everyone has a seat. Who are the mystery travellers who
need the six-seats on Orion Lite? Did Canadarm2 become sentient and
now requires emergency evac in case of fire?

On 4/16/2010 9:57 AM, Neil Fraser wrote:
On Apr 16, 8:30 am, Pat wrote:
Orion can carry six astronauts, Soyuz only three.
So you need two Soyuz to evacuate the whole ISS crew, but only one Orion.

Once Dragon (or one of its competitors) comes online, Russia would
presumably scale back its Soyuz flights so that there is only one
Soyuz docked to the station at any given time. Between one Dragon (7
crew) and one Soyuz (3 crew) I don't see a problem with evacuating the
six people on ISS.

No, Dragon would make a great lifeboat, and remove the need for using
Orion for that mission.
The problem is that neither Dragon or Orion exist at the moment, and
considering that Orion needs to be modified and lightened to make it fly
on Atlas V or Delta IV Heavy, there's a very good chance that Dragon
will be ready to go before Orion Light is.
Then comes the question of whether Orion Light has any utility for a
manned Moon or Mars mission. Because if it doesn't, all it is is a ISS
crew taxi/lifeboat...and again there is Dragon to do that.

Once upon a time there was a requirement for a dedicated ISS lifeboat
since crew transfer was originally to be handled by Shuttle. Since
the orbiter can't loiter at the station for six months, a separate
vehicle was needed for emergencies. Concepts ranged from (seriously)
confiscating two unflown Apollo vehicles from museums, refurbishing
them and docking them to the station, to the X-38. With the
replacement of Shuttle with vehicles that can be parked at the station
for the duration of its crews' mission, there doesn't seem to be a
need for a dedicated lifeboat.

The Russians had a concept also:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/alpeboat.htm

Pat