Secret Programs?

I'm having a hard time believing that the era of the Space Shuttle is coming to
an end. The U.S. has had manned space flight for what, 49 years now? In fact, I
really DON'T believe we're not going to have a manned presence in space. What
are the chances that there is a secret, military program that still utilizes
shuttles or shuttle-like vehicles? Wasn't there a program that never got off the
ground many years ago, with a selected crew of astronauts who never flew?
Thought I saw that on a TV show. Could something else be flying? Maybe disguised
as satellite launches? Or would it be too difficult to hide a manned launch.

wrote:
I'm having a hard time believing that the era of the Space Shuttle is coming to
an end. The U.S. has had manned space flight for what, 49 years now? In fact, I
really DON'T believe we're not going to have a manned presence in space. What
are the chances that there is a secret, military program that still utilizes
shuttles or shuttle-like vehicles?

Zero.

Wasn't there a program that never got off the
ground many years ago, with a selected crew of astronauts who never flew?

The key words are "never got off the ground" and "never flew".

Thought I saw that on a TV show. Could something else be flying? Maybe disguised
as satellite launches? Or would it be too difficult to hide a manned launch.

The latter.

wrote:
I'm having a hard time believing that the era of the Space Shuttle is
coming to an end. The U.S. has had manned space flight for what, 49

Not quite, we've had it for approximately 30 years after a 6 year gap.

You may or may not recall that Apollo-Soyuz Test Project marked the end of
the Apollo program and US manned spaceflight until 1981.

One big difference between now and then is that we have several private
companies planning on providing their own sub-orbital and orbital craft.

years now? In fact, I really DON'T believe we're not going to have a
manned presence in space. What are the chances that there is a
secret, military program that still utilizes shuttles or shuttle-like
vehicles? Wasn't there a program that never got off the ground many
years ago, with a selected crew of astronauts who never flew?

You may be thinking of the MOL - Manned Orbiting Laboratory which was an Air
Force project based on Gemini vehicles.

Thought
I saw that on a TV show. Could something else be flying? Maybe
disguised as satellite launches? Or would it be too difficult to hide
a manned launch.

It would be very difficult to hide manned launches unless you really worked
at it. (Probably airlaunched with recovery somewhere over the Pacific.)


--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On 2/22/2010 7:35 PM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:Wasn't there a
program that never got off the ground many
years ago, with a selected crew of astronauts who never flew?

You may be thinking of the MOL - Manned Orbiting Laboratory which was an Air
Force project based on Gemini vehicles.

They also had astronauts lined up for Dyna-Soar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-20_Dyna-Soar

"In April 1960, seven astronauts were secretly chosen for the Dyna-Soar
program. Neil Armstrong and Bill Dana left the program in the summer of
1962. On 19 September 1962, Albert Crews was added to the Dyna-Soar
program and the names of the six Dyna-Soar astronauts were announced to
the public:
* Neil Armstrong (NASA) 1960–62
* Albert H. Crews, Jr. (Air Force) 1962–63
* Bill Dana (NASA) 1960–62
* Henry C. Gordon (Air Force) 1960–63
* Pete Knight (Air Force) 1960–63
* Russell L. Rogers (Air Force) 1960–63
* Milt Thompson (NASA) 1960–63
* James W. Wood (Air Force) 1960–63"

Not surprisingly, there was a strong X-15 pilot bias.

The MOL astronauts we
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Orbital_Laboratory

"* MOL Group 1 - November 1965
o Michael J. Adams (Air Force)
o Albert H. Crews Jr. (Air Force)
o John L. Finley (Navy)
o Richard E. Lawyer (Air Force)
o Lachlan Macleay (Air Force)
o Francis G. Neubeck (Air Force)
o James M. Taylor (Air Force)
o Richard H. Truly (Navy)

* MOL Group 2 - June 1966
o Karol J. Bobko (Air Force)
o Robert L. Crippen (Navy)
o Charles G. Fullerton (Air Force)
o Henry W. Hartsfield, Jr. (Air Force)
o Robert F. Overmyer (Marine Corps)

* MOL Group 3 - June 1967
o James A. Abrahamson (Air Force)
o Robert T. Herres (Air Force)
o Robert H. Lawrence, Jr. (Air Force)
o Donald H. Peterson (Air Force)"

Pat

wrote in message
...
I'm having a hard time believing that the era of the Space Shuttle is
coming to
an end. The U.S. has had manned space flight for what, 49 years now?

Except for the gap between Apollo (really ASTP) and the first shuttle
flight. And the gap after the Challenger disaster. And the gap after the
Columbia disaster.

Add up the gaps and the US has not had continuous manned spaceflight for 49
years. Another gap isn't going to make much of a difference in the long
term.

In fact, I
really DON'T believe we're not going to have a manned presence in space.
What
are the chances that there is a secret, military program that still
utilizes
shuttles or shuttle-like vehicles? Wasn't there a program that never got
off the
ground many years ago, with a selected crew of astronauts who never flew?
Thought I saw that on a TV show. Could something else be flying? Maybe
disguised
as satellite launches? Or would it be too difficult to hide a manned
launch.

What have you been smoking?

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:03:45 -0500, wrote:


Thought I saw that on a TV show. Could something else be flying? Maybe disguised
as satellite launches? Or would it be too difficult to hide a manned launch.

It's not totally impossible, but as the saying goes, "extraordinary
claims require extraordinary evidence." Sensationalist TV shows with
blurry lights in the night sky and distorted audio eyewitness
testimony just don't cut it.

The U.S. has large launch facilities (pads big enough to launch
rockets large enough to orbit an astronaut) only at Cape Canaveral,
Florida and Vandenberg AFB, California. Those launches are pretty well
all accounted for with the mundane communications and weather
satellites. Some are secret. We don't really know what's under the
nose cone of those rockets, but we do know that the NRO operates a
fleet of spy satellites, and those must be launched somewhere,
somehow. So all else being equal and the simplest explanation usually
being the correct one, those rockets launched spy satellites.

If such a secret space program exists, it would likely have to be an
air-launched system, probably operating from a base in the
inter-mountain west. A Boeing 747 or other large aircraft could
theoretically carry to altitude a small spacecraft launch vehicle,
like the Pegasus rocket. But a manned spacecraft is probably beyond
the theoretical capability of such a system. Prestigious magazines
such as Aviation Week have run speculative articles on such vehicles
(one derived from the old XB-70 supersonic bomber) but only in
connection with unmanned spacecraft (spy satellites) and even then,
few in the industry consider the story to be genuine.

Could the U.S. military be operating a secret manned space system?
Yes, of course it could. But why? All previous military manned space
programs (X-20 Dyna-Soar, Manned Orbiting Laboratory, military Shuttle
flights) were abandoned either for lack of mission or because unmanned
systems could do the job better and more cheaply. That hasn't changed.
It is enormously unlikely and there is absolutely no evidence to
support the existence of such a system.

Brian

On 2/23/2010 4:33 PM, Brian Thorn wrote:

If such a secret space program exists, it would likely have to be an
air-launched system, probably operating from a base in the
inter-mountain west. A Boeing 747 or other large aircraft could
theoretically carry to altitude a small spacecraft launch vehicle,
like the Pegasus rocket. But a manned spacecraft is probably beyond
the theoretical capability of such a system. Prestigious magazines
such as Aviation Week have run speculative articles on such vehicles
(one derived from the old XB-70 supersonic bomber) but only in
connection with unmanned spacecraft (spy satellites) and even then,
few in the industry consider the story to be genuine.

If they did have something that was manned and air-launched operating,
it might well have slide out of the back of a C-5 while it's flying out
over the ocean in a climb.
There were two C-5C aircraft made that had an enlarged interior cargo
deck for NASA use in transporting oversized loads:
http://www.aero-web.org/specs/lockheed/c-5c.htm
Then there is the Quickreach satellite booster carrying C-17 variant:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...quickreach.htm
Probably too small to have a orbital manned capability, but maybe as a
"pop-up" satellite destroyer?
Still, like you say, it seems like a overly-complex way to do a fairly
simple job.
Ran into this neat 1965 Lockheed design for a three-stage-to-orbit fully
reusable shuttle launched from a steam catapult a couple of weeks back:
http://dreamsofspace.nfshost.com/gif...gstations7.jpg
This actually resembles the "B-70" type space launcher that AW&ST called
the "Blackstar", with the front canards actually being the wings of the
top-mounted spaceplane. Time frame would be about right for when the
"Blackstar/Aurora/Brilliant Buzzard" rumors first in the early 1980's
started also.

Pat