Bye-bye batteries, hello new tech supercapacitors?

God help you if you are holding on to one of these things and it
discharges into you:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...wer-store.html

"The resulting capacitor can deliver energy at a speed typical of
electrostatic capacitors, at a rate that would allow a single kilogram
to deliver one megawatt of power – enough to power 10,000 100-watt light
bulbs. It can also store energy as densely as a supercapacitor, with 1
kg holding 2500 joules."

Still, it would be very useful in powering vehicles on other worlds,
after storing power collected by either solar arrays or nuclear generators.

Pat

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...
God help you if you are holding on to one of these things and it
discharges into you:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...wer-store.html

I doubt Got would help - I wouldn't have thought that God liked the smell of
'Extra Crispy Chicken'....

On Mar 15, 4:00*pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
God help you if you are holding on to one of these things and it
discharges into you:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...truction-yield...

"The resulting capacitor can deliver energy at a speed typical of
electrostatic capacitors, at a rate that would allow a single kilogram
to deliver one megawatt of power – enough to power 10,000 100-watt light
bulbs. It can also store energy as densely as a supercapacitor, with 1
kg holding 2500 joules."

Still, it would be very useful in powering vehicles on other worlds,
after storing power collected by either solar arrays or nuclear generators.

Pat

Not yet. The power capacitors can put out, meaning how rapidly they
can put out the energy they contain, is high. However, still their
total energy content per kilogram is low. The energy content quoted in
the article of 2500 joules per kilo is much lower than even than
standard lead acid batteries.
See the table of energy densities here near the bottom of the table:

True energy densities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_...ergy_densities

Bob Clark

Alan Erskine wrote:
I doubt Got would help - I wouldn't have thought that God liked the smell of
'Extra Crispy Chicken'....

Remember all those burnt offerings in the Old Testament...including the
cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Pat

"Robert Clark" wrote in message
...
On Mar 15, 4:00 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
God help you if you are holding on to one of these things and it
discharges into
you:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...truction-yield...

"The resulting capacitor can deliver energy at a speed typical of
electrostatic capacitors, at a rate that would allow a single kilogram
to deliver one megawatt of power – enough to power 10,000 100-watt
light
bulbs. It can also store energy as densely as a supercapacitor, with 1
kg holding 2500 joules."

Still, it would be very useful in powering vehicles on other worlds,
after storing power collected by either solar arrays or nuclear
generators.

Pat

Not yet. The power capacitors can put out, meaning how rapidly they
can put out the energy they contain, is high. However, still their
total energy content per kilogram is low. The energy content quoted in
the article of 2500 joules per kilo is much lower than even than
standard lead acid batteries.
See the table of energy densities here near the bottom of the table:

True energy densities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_...ergy_densities

Bob Clark

==========================================

Will there soon be high-tech capacitors that can store much more energy
per kilo of mass, than any chemical batteries? Hmmm ... there comes to
mind one of the Lensman stories by E.E. Smith, in which a Kinnison is
under attack. He finds a power station and diverts its energy into his
space suit to prepare for further action. Taking in the power station's
full output, it seems to take around an hour to top off his energy
supply. What technology was Smith thinking of, back in the late 1930's,
when he wrote this? I've a feeling he was thinking of capacitor energy
storage.

There was a super-capacitor in one of George O. Smith's Venus
Equilateral stories. Wes Farrell on Venus Equilateral is doing some
engineering on switches that can break a large charge flow. He builds a
thirteen farad capacitor which he charges to three thousand volts. This
makes Don Channing nervous, for some reason.... I couldn't find a date
for the story, 'Firing Line,' but I think it would be around 1944 or
1945 (the paperback book is dated 1947).

So people have been thinking about capacitor energy storage for a while,
and I think maybe as materials science develops, we might see capacitor
energy storage displacing chemical battery energy storage.

Titeotwawki -- mha [sci.space.policy 2009 Mar 15]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:05:05 +0000, Martha Adams wrote:

So people have been thinking about capacitor energy storage for a while,
and I think maybe as materials science develops, we might see capacitor
energy storage displacing chemical battery energy storage.

As the size of the physical elements in the device shrink one gets closer
and closer again to chemistry.

Maybe they'll reach optimal capacity before they cross that blurry line.
Don't know enough to say.

-- RLW

On Mar 15, 5:23*pm, Robert Clark wrote:
On Mar 15, 4:00*pm, Pat Flannery wrote:

God help you if you are holding on to one of these things and it
discharges into you:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...truction-yield...

"The resulting capacitor can deliver energy at a speed typical of
electrostatic capacitors, at a rate that would allow a single kilogram
to deliver one megawatt of power – enough to power 10,000 100-watt light
bulbs. It can also store energy as densely as a supercapacitor, with 1
kg holding 2500 joules."

Still, it would be very useful in powering vehicles on other worlds,
after storing power collected by either solar arrays or nuclear generators.

Pat

*Not yet. The power capacitors can put out, meaning how rapidly they
can put out the energy they contain, is high. However, still their
total energy content per kilogram is low. The energy content quoted in
the article of 2500 joules per kilo is much lower than even than
standard lead acid batteries.
*See the table of energy densities here near the bottom of the table:

Well, but the people who compute those tables are always
persitently ignorant of the fact, that the people who study
power capactors mostly do it because the cost saving is in
the fact than you can directly couple them to electric motors,
rather
than having to worry about GM conversion cranks.








True energy densities.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_...ergy_densities

* Bob Clark

Martha Adams wrote:

"Robert Clark" wrote in message
Pat Flannery wrote:

God help you if you are holding on to one of these things and it
discharges into
you:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...truction-yield...

"The resulting capacitor can deliver energy at a speed typical of
electrostatic capacitors, at a rate that would allow a single kilogram
to deliver one megawatt of power – enough to power 10,000 100-watt
light bulbs.

I think New Scientist have lost the plot. They even claim super capacitors can
match batteries for energy density which is a pure lie.


It can also store energy as densely as a supercapacitor, with 1
kg holding 2500 joules."

Still, it would be very useful in powering vehicles on other worlds,
after storing power collected by either solar arrays or nuclear
generators.


Not yet. The power capacitors can put out, meaning how rapidly they
can put out the energy they contain, is high. However, still their
total energy content per kilogram is low. The energy content quoted in
the article of 2500 joules per kilo is much lower than even than
standard lead acid batteries.
See the table of energy densities here near the bottom of the table:

True energy densities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_...ergy_densities

==========================================

Will there soon be high-tech capacitors that can store much more energy
per kilo of mass, than any chemical batteries?

No, because the basic physics and materials won't allow it.

Graham

We really don't need better batteries, or anything. All we need is
the will to do things differently. We have the technology already in
place.

Electric motors connected to wires built into the roadway are the way
to go. It was how streetcars worked in the 20s, it is how trams and
trains throughout Europe work today, and it is something that competes
against autos today and back in the 1920s.

That's why the oil and auto companies colluded to destroy the
streetcar companies and replace them with cars and gas stations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...car_conspiracy

If this hadn't happened we'd already have trams superior to that of
Europe - and we wouldn't be so dependent on oil or automobiles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams

We also would have migrated naturally to powered roadways using more
modern methods developed in the 50s and 60s

Here are some more modern implementation plans;

http://www.peapodmobility.com/

http://www.path.berkeley.edu/PATH/Pu.../PRR-93-19.pdf

http://www.unimodal.com/

On Mar 15, 11:50 pm, Eeyore
wrote:
Martha Adams wrote:
"Robert Clark" wrote in message
Pat Flannery wrote:
"The resulting capacitor can deliver energy at a speed typical of
electrostatic capacitors, at a rate that would allow a single kilogram
to deliver one megawatt of power – enough to power 10,000 100-watt
light bulbs.

I think New Scientist have lost the plot. They even claim super capacitors can
match batteries for energy density which is a pure lie.

...

I think they got the point backwards of the research article they
were referring to. Here's where they mention this:

Atomic construction yields punchier power store.
18:00 15 March 2009
"Electrostatic capacitors store charge on the surface of two
conducting plates separated by an insulating layer. Their advantage is
that they can store and release energy much faster than batteries.
"That makes them ideal candidates to replace batteries in devices that
require speedy discharge of power, such as electric cars. However,
electric capacitors can hold only limited charge. Supercapacitors that
store charge chemically as well as electrically have greater
capacities, but perform only as well as the best batteries."
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...truction-yield

And they provide this link on the page:

'Nanoball' batteries could recharge car in minutes.
12 March 2009 by David Shiga
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...n-minutes.html

Here's the original research article this one is reporting on:

Letter.
Battery materials for ultrafast charging and discharging.
Byoungwoo Kang & Gerbrand Ceder
Nature, 458, 190-193 (12 March 2009)
"The storage of electrical energy at high charge and discharge rate is
an important technology in today's society, and can enable hybrid and
plug-in hybrid electric vehicles and provide back-up for wind and
solar energy. It is typically believed that in electrochemical systems
very high power rates can only be achieved with supercapacitors, which
trade high power for low energy density as they only store energy by
surface adsorption reactions of charged species on an electrode
material1, 2, 3. Here we show that batteries4, 5 which obtain high
energy density by storing charge in the bulk of a material can also
achieve ultrahigh discharge rates, comparable to those of
supercapacitors. We realize this in LiFePO4 (ref. 6), a material with
high lithium bulk mobility7, 8, by creating a fast ion-conducting
surface phase through controlled off-stoichiometry. A rate capability
equivalent to full battery discharge in 10–20 s can be achieved."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture07853.html

Note that this specifically says supercapacitors have low energy
density. The point of this research was that *batteries* can have high
power in addition to their high energy density.

Bob Clark