Silent night

It was claimed that in a targeted survey the 'phoenix' set of radio
dishes, including arecibo, would be able to pick up the carrier signal
of a gigawatt beacon at a distance of 200 lys.
By extrapolation, to pick up a megawatt signal, a common power level
for dtv transmission, at a distance of a hundred lys, would require an
area of nearly ten square miles... equal to the expanse of a 5GW SPS.

The 'defered' terrestrial planet finder telescope would be four times
the size of hubble and stars as far as 29 lys would be surveyed. To
get a reliable spectrum of even the ozone of an earth twin at 100 lys
would require an awe inspiring 30m mirror.

These instruments would be required to detect a civilization or the
precursor oxygen atmosphere that might precede it by half a billion
years, for just the closest 10000 stars, a ten millionth of the
galaxy's population.

We can't know if the starry night is silent untill we have bigger ears
and eyes.

What you are basically saying is that better instruments are required
to do anything like a comprehensive survey. The statement that SETI is
a waste of tme does not contradict this.

Of course you must be aware of the fact that large telescopes cannot
be dedicated for one use. There is dark matter and graitational
lensing. There is the way in which the Universe developed in its
earlier stages. My contention has always been that the search for life
is inseperable from the improvement of observational techniques in
general.

BTW Such telescope sizes are not out of the question if they are built
in fragments. Spectroscopy, inculding the detection of ozone, can be
done by moving the fragments relative to one and other.


- Ian Parker

On Nov 22, 8:33*am, Ian Parker wrote:
What you are basically saying is that better instruments are required
to do anything like a comprehensive survey. The statement that SETI is
a waste of tme does not contradict this.

Of course you must be aware of the fact that large telescopes cannot
be dedicated for one use. There is dark matter and graitational
lensing. There is the way in which the Universe developed in its
earlier stages. My contention has always been that the search for life
is inseperable from the improvement of observational techniques in
general.

BTW Such telescope sizes are not out of the question if they are built
in fragments. Spectroscopy, inculding the detection of ozone, can be
done by moving the fragments relative to one and other.

* - Ian Parker

In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.

Without the stresses of gravity and wind, space is an ideal 'platform'
for their construction.

Totorkon wrote:
In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.


The big problem with SETI is - as you point out -that the assumption
that extraterrestrial civilizations to be detected are going to continue
to transmit radio frequency range signals over a period of several
hundreds or thousands of years, rather than almost immediately moving to
a better form of communication that doesn't suffer from speed-of-light
constraints.
That changes the whole Drake Equation/SETI formula for picking up
extraterrestrial civilizations, as we may be looking around for radio
signals... when all the other galactic civilizations communicate
instantaneously via dark matter and the collapsed dimensions, around a
couple of hundred years or so after coming up with radio.
In short, we are looking for smoke signals in a realm that has telegraph
poles running through it.

Pat

On 23 Nov, 07:37, Pat Flannery wrote:
Totorkon wrote:
In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. *With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. *As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.

The big problem with SETI is - as you point out -that the assumption
that extraterrestrial civilizations to be detected are going to continue
to transmit radio frequency range signals over a period of several
hundreds or thousands of years, rather than almost immediately moving to
a better form of communication that doesn't suffer from speed-of-light
constraints.

I come from Britain BTW and we are in the process of a digital switch
over. You could at one point detect sync pulses at 10Pc (more with
larger instruments) but no more. In the further future (still
excedingly short in geological terms) television and the Internet will
merge. Already there are 8Mbit web casts for those that can receive.
It is estimated (Britain) that some £23billion or $35 billlion will be
needed to give everyone fiber optic links. People blanch at that sort
of price tag but it will be done instananeously in geological terms.
It could even be the sort of public work that you spend on in a
recession.

All that will be left will be mobile communications. You will hear a
mush from mobile computers ans phones, but that will be it. The only
other transmissions will be highly directional space transmissions.

That changes the whole Drake Equation/SETI *formula for picking up
extraterrestrial civilizations, as we may be looking around for radio
signals... when all the other galactic civilizations communicate
instantaneously via dark matter and the collapsed dimensions, around a
couple of *hundred years or so after coming up with radio.
In short, we are looking for smoke signals in a realm that has telegraph
poles running through it.

You don't need SciFi proposals, merely good old fiber optics and
phased attennae.


- Ian Parker

On Nov 23, 6:23 am, Ian Parker wrote:
On 23 Nov, 07:37, Pat Flannery wrote:



Totorkon wrote:
In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.

The big problem with SETI is - as you point out -that the assumption
that extraterrestrial civilizations to be detected are going to continue
to transmit radio frequency range signals over a period of several
hundreds or thousands of years, rather than almost immediately moving to
a better form of communication that doesn't suffer from speed-of-light
constraints.

I come from Britain BTW and we are in the process of a digital switch
over. You could at one point detect sync pulses at 10Pc (more with
larger instruments) but no more. In the further future (still
excedingly short in geological terms) television and the Internet will
merge. Already there are 8Mbit web casts for those that can receive.
It is estimated (Britain) that some £23billion or $35 billlion will be
needed to give everyone fiber optic links. People blanch at that sort
of price tag but it will be done instananeously in geological terms.
It could even be the sort of public work that you spend on in a
recession.

All that will be left will be mobile communications. You will hear a
mush from mobile computers ans phones, but that will be it. The only
other transmissions will be highly directional space transmissions.

That changes the whole Drake Equation/SETI formula for picking up
extraterrestrial civilizations, as we may be looking around for radio
signals... when all the other galactic civilizations communicate
instantaneously via dark matter and the collapsed dimensions, around a
couple of hundred years or so after coming up with radio.
In short, we are looking for smoke signals in a realm that has telegraph
poles running through it.

You don't need SciFi proposals, merely good old fiber optics and
phased attennae.

- Ian Parker

You say "Could pick up the carrier". Hmmm, that doesnt tell you
anything. An unmodulated carrier carries no information at all. It
could be due to some sort of natural synchrotron radiation or
something similar. The statement implies that the modulation would be
much more diff to detect.

On Nov 23, 3:23 am, Ian Parker wrote:
On 23 Nov, 07:37, Pat Flannery wrote:



Totorkon wrote:
In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.

The big problem with SETI is - as you point out -that the assumption
that extraterrestrial civilizations to be detected are going to continue
to transmit radio frequency range signals over a period of several
hundreds or thousands of years, rather than almost immediately moving to
a better form of communication that doesn't suffer from speed-of-light
constraints.

I come from Britain BTW and we are in the process of a digital switch
over. You could at one point detect sync pulses at 10Pc (more with
larger instruments) but no more. In the further future (still
excedingly short in geological terms) television and the Internet will
merge. Already there are 8Mbit web casts for those that can receive.
It is estimated (Britain) that some £23billion or $35 billlion will be
needed to give everyone fiber optic links. People blanch at that sort
of price tag but it will be done instananeously in geological terms.
It could even be the sort of public work that you spend on in a
recession.

All that will be left will be mobile communications. You will hear a
mush from mobile computers ans phones, but that will be it. The only
other transmissions will be highly directional space transmissions.

That changes the whole Drake Equation/SETI formula for picking up
extraterrestrial civilizations, as we may be looking around for radio
signals... when all the other galactic civilizations communicate
instantaneously via dark matter and the collapsed dimensions, around a
couple of hundred years or so after coming up with radio.
In short, we are looking for smoke signals in a realm that has telegraph
poles running through it.

You don't need SciFi proposals, merely good old fiber optics and
phased attennae.

- Ian Parker

If ETs wanted to contact us, they would have done that as of at least
a good 100 years ago, before we became so freaking dangerous and at
the same time highly faith-based bigoted and dumbfounded past the
point of no return.

~ BG

On Nov 21, 9:28 pm, Totorkon wrote:
It was claimed that in a targeted survey the 'phoenix' set of radio
dishes, including arecibo, would be able to pick up the carrier signal
of a gigawatt beacon at a distance of 200 lys.
By extrapolation, to pick up a megawatt signal, a common power level
for dtv transmission, at a distance of a hundred lys, would require an
area of nearly ten square miles... equal to the expanse of a 5GW SPS.

The 'defered' terrestrial planet finder telescope would be four times
the size of hubble and stars as far as 29 lys would be surveyed. To
get a reliable spectrum of even the ozone of an earth twin at 100 lys
would require an awe inspiring 30m mirror.

These instruments would be required to detect a civilization or the
precursor oxygen atmosphere that might precede it by half a billion
years, for just the closest 10000 stars, a ten millionth of the
galaxy's population.

We can't know if the starry night is silent untill we have bigger ears
and eyes.

We should be transmitting our SOS via laser packets, using our Selene/
moon L1 as our laser packet transmitting platform.

~ BG

On Nov 24, 2:02*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Nov 23, 6:23 am, Ian Parker wrote:





On 23 Nov, 07:37, Pat Flannery wrote:

Totorkon wrote:
In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. *With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. *As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.

The big problem with SETI is - as you point out -that the assumption
that extraterrestrial civilizations to be detected are going to continue
to transmit radio frequency range signals over a period of several
hundreds or thousands of years, rather than almost immediately moving to
a better form of communication that doesn't suffer from speed-of-light
constraints.

I come from Britain BTW and we are in the process of a digital switch
over. You could at one point detect sync pulses at 10Pc (more with
larger instruments) but no more. In the further future (still
excedingly short in geological terms) television and the Internet will
merge. Already there are 8Mbit web casts for those that can receive.
It is estimated (Britain) that some £23billion or $35 billlion will be
needed to give everyone fiber optic links. People blanch at that sort
of price tag but it will be done instananeously in geological terms.
It could even be the sort of public work that you spend on in a
recession.

All that will be left will be mobile communications. You will hear a
mush from mobile computers ans phones, but that will be it. The only
other transmissions will be highly directional space transmissions.

That changes the whole Drake Equation/SETI *formula for picking up
extraterrestrial civilizations, as we may be looking around for radio
signals... when all the other galactic civilizations communicate
instantaneously via dark matter and the collapsed dimensions, around a
couple of *hundred years or so after coming up with radio.
In short, we are looking for smoke signals in a realm that has telegraph
poles running through it.

You don't need SciFi proposals, merely good old fiber optics and
phased attennae.

* - Ian Parker

You say "Could pick up the carrier". *Hmmm, that doesnt tell you
anything. *An unmodulated carrier carries no information at all. *It
could be due to some sort of natural synchrotron radiation or
something similar. *The statement implies that the modulation would be
much more diff to detect.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When greenbank picked up Huygen's 10W signal from titan, 800 Mmiles
away, the effective power of the transmission was thirty times that of
the limit claimed for project pheonix. No useful data could be
extracted.

We might not know what an ET intelligence is sending, but we would
know that there is an ETI behind it.

On Nov 24, 8:02 pm, Totorkon wrote:
On Nov 24, 2:02 pm, Frogwatch wrote:



On Nov 23, 6:23 am, Ian Parker wrote:

On 23 Nov, 07:37, Pat Flannery wrote:

Totorkon wrote:
In 'seti is pointless' it was claimed that any 'local' radio would
have been detected. With our current capability even a planet as
radio bright as earth, at a distance of the 10 or 12 lys of Drake's
stars, would likely escape detection.

It seems likely that after little more than a century a civilization
would find radio broadcast inefficient, a MW is enough to power nearly
a thousand households. As powers of detection grow there would be
greater intrest in observing other worlds than communicating with
them, A 'here we are' transmission would be improbable.

The SETI is a small chance- BIG discovery endevor that can only be
justified as a piggyback project on instruments built to investigate
astronomical mysteries.

The big problem with SETI is - as you point out -that the assumption
that extraterrestrial civilizations to be detected are going to continue
to transmit radio frequency range signals over a period of several
hundreds or thousands of years, rather than almost immediately moving to
a better form of communication that doesn't suffer from speed-of-light
constraints.

I come from Britain BTW and we are in the process of a digital switch
over. You could at one point detect sync pulses at 10Pc (more with
larger instruments) but no more. In the further future (still
excedingly short in geological terms) television and the Internet will
merge. Already there are 8Mbit web casts for those that can receive.
It is estimated (Britain) that some £23billion or $35 billlion will be
needed to give everyone fiber optic links. People blanch at that sort
of price tag but it will be done instananeously in geological terms.
It could even be the sort of public work that you spend on in a
recession.

All that will be left will be mobile communications. You will hear a
mush from mobile computers ans phones, but that will be it. The only
other transmissions will be highly directional space transmissions.

That changes the whole Drake Equation/SETI formula for picking up
extraterrestrial civilizations, as we may be looking around for radio
signals... when all the other galactic civilizations communicate
instantaneously via dark matter and the collapsed dimensions, around a
couple of hundred years or so after coming up with radio.
In short, we are looking for smoke signals in a realm that has telegraph
poles running through it.

You don't need SciFi proposals, merely good old fiber optics and
phased attennae.

- Ian Parker

You say "Could pick up the carrier". Hmmm, that doesnt tell you
anything. An unmodulated carrier carries no information at all. It
could be due to some sort of natural synchrotron radiation or
something similar. The statement implies that the modulation would be
much more diff to detect.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When greenbank picked up Huygen's 10W signal from titan, 800 Mmiles
away, the effective power of the transmission was thirty times that of
the limit claimed for project pheonix. No useful data could be
extracted.

We might not know what an ET intelligence is sending, but we would
know that there is an ETI behind it.

How would ETs interpret our laser SOS, or just "3" (· · · — —) code
packets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code

~ BG