Russian plans - A New space race?

Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

I've heard many Russians comment that the anti-Russian moon move has
rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use. Any chance the Russians and Chinese may partner to
beat us back to the Moon?

All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

J Waggoner wrote:

a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia,


Just because a country doesn't agree to being the USA's poodle does make
it "hostile" to the USA, except for naive people who believe the white
propaganda machine (CNN/FOX and the others).

If Russia were to announce it was to place missile defense system in
Cuba in order to defend itself from missiles launched from Mexico, how
would the USA react ? The USA did the equivalent by wanting put put its
missiles next to Russia, claiming it was to defent against Iran.

rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

The USA segment has finally grown to a point where it is gaining
importance. It theoretically has O2 production capability and
thoeretically has CO2 removal capability (I use theoretically because
reliability has not yet been proven), and through Shuttle, has O2 and N2
refilling of quest tanks that could also be used for ECLSS. In the past,
the USA was totally dependant on the russian segment for life support.
Right now, they depend on it for the toilet and kitchen.

Once the shuttle is retired, you will find a shift back to russian
importance since the russians will be supplying everything via progress
or ATV (which is a russian ship for the purposes of docking to the station).

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use.

I think that the russians are smart enough to read through the political
hot air in washington. There is no such thing as a moon programme. If
CEV flies, it will be as a people mover to/from the station.

The real project will be a trip to Mars, and that will require massive
launch capability, as well as in-space assembly capabilities. Going to
the moon will be a task long forgotten when/if CEV flies.


All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

In case you didn't know, Putin was replaced by Medvedev. While Putin has
positioned himself to continue to be pulling strings, this will not last
for very long and Medvedev will assert his power and have his own
policies before long.

You are forgetting Klipper. Will this be forgotten, or will they forge
ahead with it ? Will it become a "buran and after having flown once, go
to a museum, or will it go into production ? We don't know.

First ofall NATO is the only thing that has kept Western Europe free,
the last time I heard no NATO tanks invaded Poland lately. And I
didn't see the Russians exercising much restraint over their "friends"
in Serbia in the last few months with the riots in Kosovo. Not to
mention continually threatening Ukraine's independence and the freedom
of Georgia. How about opening your eyes? Putin has every intention
of reassuming the presidency after one term of Mededev. And comparing
the bm defense in Poland to the Cuban missile crisis is apples and
oranges. You didn't answer the obvious exclusion from the
Constellation program of the Russians... ? Are the Russians offering
to buy in? no, because Congress made it clear that was a non-starter
, if we had built our own heavy lift program instead of relying on the
Russians the damn thing would have been built much sooner. CNN
sure isn't a friend of the Bush Administration by the way.

No such thing a moon program, that will come as quite a surprise to
all the people at MSFC working on it. Damn guys you've been layed
off! Forget that Ares 5 prototypes, and all that Pad 39B mods, we
don't need them, Mr. Doe says its all a fairy tale. Oh yes, the
congress will be mighty surprised when the GAO delivers the news.!!!

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:32:56 -0400, John Doe wrote:

J Waggoner wrote:

a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia,


Just because a country doesn't agree to being the USA's poodle does make
it "hostile" to the USA, except for naive people who believe the white
propaganda machine (CNN/FOX and the others).

If Russia were to announce it was to place missile defense system in
Cuba in order to defend itself from missiles launched from Mexico, how
would the USA react ? The USA did the equivalent by wanting put put its
missiles next to Russia, claiming it was to defent against Iran.

rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

The USA segment has finally grown to a point where it is gaining
importance. It theoretically has O2 production capability and
thoeretically has CO2 removal capability (I use theoretically because
reliability has not yet been proven), and through Shuttle, has O2 and N2
refilling of quest tanks that could also be used for ECLSS. In the past,
the USA was totally dependant on the russian segment for life support.
Right now, they depend on it for the toilet and kitchen.

Once the shuttle is retired, you will find a shift back to russian
importance since the russians will be supplying everything via progress
or ATV (which is a russian ship for the purposes of docking to the station).

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use.

I think that the russians are smart enough to read through the political
hot air in washington. There is no such thing as a moon programme. If
CEV flies, it will be as a people mover to/from the station.

The real project will be a trip to Mars, and that will require massive
launch capability, as well as in-space assembly capabilities. Going to
the moon will be a task long forgotten when/if CEV flies.


All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

In case you didn't know, Putin was replaced by Medvedev. While Putin has
positioned himself to continue to be pulling strings, this will not last
for very long and Medvedev will assert his power and have his own
policies before long.

You are forgetting Klipper. Will this be forgotten, or will they forge
ahead with it ? Will it become a "buran and after having flown once, go
to a museum, or will it go into production ? We don't know.

I think you are mixing up posturing for political reasons and the reality of
the world situation actually. Of course Russia wants its people and all who
have been or are thinking of being its friends to have confidence in it, so
not being a lapdog of the US is a great stance considering the bungles the
US makes of foreign policy these days.


Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"J Waggoner" wrote in message
...


Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

I've heard many Russians comment that the anti-Russian moon move has
rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use. Any chance the Russians and Chinese may partner to
beat us back to the Moon?

All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:14:29 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

I think you are mixing up posturing for political reasons and the reality of
the world situation actually.

....Actually, I think he's just trolling.

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

J Waggoner wrote:
Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

Russia has been 'planning' to build their own (new) station MIR style
and to revive their Lunar program since about 1x10-9 seconds after the
USSR ceased to exist. The only tangible results to come out of the
last seventeen odd years is heaps of press releases, viewgraphs, and
power points explaining how any day now Russia is going to leap to the
forefront of space stunts.

Only the impressionable have been impressed.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use.

Other than the fact that there is no such booster as the Energia,
sure. Whatever.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:36:28 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:

Russia has been 'planning' to build their own (new) station MIR style
and to revive their Lunar program since about 1x10-9 seconds after the
USSR ceased to exist. The only tangible results to come out of the
last seventeen odd years is heaps of press releases, viewgraphs, and
power points explaining how any day now Russia is going to leap to the
forefront of space stunts.

....You forgot the mockups. They made some nice mockups.

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

An I'm proud to be an american where at least I oppose tyranny.
Repeal the patriot act, how partriotic.

The Mockup yes. last time I looked the Buran was launched on top of
something.

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:12:37 -0500, OM
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:36:28 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:

Russia has been 'planning' to build their own (new) station MIR style
and to revive their Lunar program since about 1x10-9 seconds after the
USSR ceased to exist. The only tangible results to come out of the
last seventeen odd years is heaps of press releases, viewgraphs, and
power points explaining how any day now Russia is going to leap to the
forefront of space stunts.

...You forgot the mockups. They made some nice mockups.

OM

J Waggoner wrote:

The Mockup yes. last time I looked the Buran was launched on top of
something.

When you sober up, look up the current status of that something.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:28:20 -0500, J Waggoner
wrote:

The Mockup yes. last time I looked the Buran was launched on top of
something.

It was, the last Energia. That was 1988.

Both are now dead and gone.

Brian