The Lost Cosmonauts book

Giovanni Abrate wrote:

Well, almost!
I just received an advance copy of a book written by the Judica Cordiglia
brothers, that recounts their activity in the early 1960s and later.


I've been meaning to ask you this: are they related to the Judica
Cordiglia who did the work on the Shroud of Turin? "Giovanni Judica
Cordiglia, professor of forensic medicine at the faculty of Milan,
published in 1961 an anthropometric description of the man in the
Shroud. Height 1m 81cm, weight 77 kilos, Body characteristics similar to
classical Mediterranean type, Age between 30 and 40. Outward aspects :
beard, long hair gathered in a pony tail that hung between his shoulder
blades."
...or the Giovanni Battista Judica Cordiglia who photographed the shroud
in 1969? Because I can see a possible relationship between the Holy
Shroud and Dead Soviet Cosmonauts: both take a great deal of
unquestioning faith...and a suspension of rational thought...to believe.

Pat

The professor of forensic medicine was their father. He was very well known
in Italy at the time.
The man who photographed the shroud (which is a medievel fake) in 1969 is
one of the two brothers, who is a forensic scientist who recently worked on
a very high profile court case involving a former defense minister of
Berlusconi's government.
The other brother is a well-known cardiologist.
Giovanni

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...

I've been meaning to ask you this: are they related to the Judica
Cordiglia who did the work on the Shroud of Turin? "Giovanni Judica
Cordiglia, professor of forensic medicine at the faculty of Milan,
published in 1961 ..or the Giovanni Battista Judica Cordiglia who
photographed the shroud
in 1969? Pat

In the TLC book, the Judica Cordiglia brothers mention that, in late
February 1964, in the NASA facility at 400 Maryland Avenue, Washington, DC,
they met a Mr. Haussman of NASA. Does anyone have data about this person? Is
he still living?
He was joined by a Mr. Morrison, responsible for Earth-Space communications.
After listening to the recordings that had been brought along by the JC
brothers, a meeting was arranged that included Gen. H.K. Johnson and Gen.
E.G. Wheeler.
It would be interesting to hear from anyone who worked there in 1964 to have
confirmation of the names.
Giovanni

The consensus in the space history community is that these events never
happened. I happen to be the only "believer", for what it's worth, mainly
because I lived through those intercepts when I lived in Turin in the '60s
and because I happen to know the Judica Cordiglia brothers very well. Their
father was a doctor who went to medical school with my dad, who, at one
time, was the president of the italian equivalent of the AMA.
Anyway, you can read about and listen to some of the radio intercepts at the
Lost Cosmonauts website, that I produced together with my brother, who is
the HTML expert in my family.
I am a former test pilot and I have worked in the aerospace industry all my
life, including now (I work in Palm Bay, very close to Cape Canaveral).
I respect the skeptics, but respectfully disagree with their conclusions.
The website URL is
www.lostcosmonauts.com
As I mentioned, the book is very well written and I will gladly post
excerpts if desired.
Take care,
Giovanni

"bob" wrote in message
r.com...
I remember being captivated by the rumors of the lost cosmonauts as a
child
in the 60's

Interestingly, the same "paranoid anti-communist rumors" these stories
were
grouped with (the number of soviets executed and imprisoned during the
stalin years etc) mostly turned out to be true, but I have never heard
anything about the cosmonaut stories, though judging from the comments on
this forum, apparently the evidence is lacking?

Some post soviet fall back fill might help this baby boomer catch up....

Thanks, Jim.
Take care,
Giovanni

"JimO" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the news, Giovanni. If only sincerity were a good way to
measure
accuracy, life would be easier.

"Giovanni Abrate" wrote in message
...
As I mentioned, the book is very well written and I will gladly post
excerpts if desired.

There are many questions we have posed to you, that you avoided answering.

The main one, as I recall, is to provide checkable documentation that any
other European site reported radio reception that they believed came from an
unannounced manned flight.

You have cited Kaminski at Bochum. But his reports -- at least, all the ones
that I have seen -- dealt only with Soviet unmanned vehiucles, or with
acknowledged manned flights.

These stories were plausible interpretations back in the 1960s. I have no
criticism of people, at THAT time, who found them to be persuasive evidence
for Soviet coverups of disasters.

But forty years have gone by. The people involved, the memoirs of the top
people (Mishin and Kamanin and Chertok come to mind) the archives, the
classified Western documents, a vast collection of still and cine film
images, all have been available to historians for more than a decade.

None of them contains a shred of evidence even suggestive, in my
interpretation, that such secret doomed orbital missions ever occurred.

The true duty of a space historian, it seems to me, would be to use this
strory to try to understand how some people misinterpreted the fragmentary
raw evidence, in order to be smarter about future cases in which similar
fragmentary data is available (regarding China, for example).

THAT would be constructive.

But to keep singing the old song that WE were right all along, and THEY are
still wrong, strikes me as egotistical self-justification more
characteristic of a high NASA bureaucrat than of an honest space historian.

Jim,
I don't understand your accusation of "egotistical self-justification"... I
get nothing for what I do, except being ridiculed by the establishment. I
respect your views, I also have a different perspective of the events
because I was in Turin in 1961 and most others were not. My position, as I
have stated many times, stems from the fact that I know the people involved
and I believe in their honesty. We are not talking kooks, but very
respectable members of the italian society.
I have also had independent confirmation from other sources that,
unfortunately, I cannot divulge. I know, what's the point...
So we are in posession of different sets of data and it is therefore
possible for us to get to a different set of conclusions.
I have also repeatedly provided names of NASA personnel who were in contact
with the Judica Cordiglia brothers, but I must say that even those
researchers who are in a position to quickly find out whether these people
existed and if any reports exist of their meetings with the italian brothers
have not made any efforts to find out. Fair enough, I don't expect any
favors. c'est la vie.
The book, in over 380 pages does cover in great detail all these events and
provides corroborating evidence by many journalists and witnesses who were
present at the time of the intercepts. They came from as far as Japan to
witness these events.
As I mentioned, I will try and translate the book: it makes for some very
fascinating reading.
Peace everyone!
Respectfully,
Giovanni

"JimO" wrote in message
...



But to keep singing the old song that WE were right all along, and THEY
are
still wrong, strikes me as egotistical self-justification more
characteristic of a high NASA bureaucrat than of an honest space
historian.

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:50:37 GMT, "Giovanni Abrate"
wrote:

The consensus in the space history community is that these events never
happened. I happen to be the only "believer",

....To your credit, you're probably the most polite, rational
conspiracy theorist whacko I've ever come across. Which is probably
why everyone here cuts you a lot more slack than they'd ever even
think of giving inbred lunatics like the Maxsons, CT, Brad Guth or Bob
Haller.

....And, when you really look at the Lost Cosmonauts issue, the only
plausible reason the Lost Cosmonuts are still around to keep this hoax
alive is that we all deep down know the Soviets were guilty of all
sort of stunts, blunders and atrocities with a complete disregard for
human life all the way up through Gorbachev. As a result, we *want*
for the proof to exist that Korolev's team had lobbed at least 42
people into orbit who never came back alive. If they had, it would
offer more proof for future generations that the Soviets were the Evil
Empire that was at least as evil as the Nazis. After all, if they'd
sacrifice a dog on their second satellite launch, why not a member or
12 of the proles?

Of course, had Laika been recovered alive, odds are is that there'd
been less precedence to base the reports of lost missions on...


OM

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Giovanni Abrate wrote:
In the TLC book, the Judica Cordiglia brothers mention that, in late
February 1964, in the NASA facility at 400 Maryland Avenue, Washington, DC,
they met a Mr. Haussman of NASA. Does anyone have data about this person?
Is he still living? He was joined by a Mr. Morrison, responsible for
Earth-Space communications. After listening to the recordings that had been
brought along by the JC brothers, a meeting was arranged that included
Gen. H.K. Johnson and Gen. E.G. Wheeler. It would be interesting to hear
from anyone who worked there in 1964 to have confirmation of the names.

Giovanni,

You do realize, I trust, that this sort of "evidence" simply confirms that you
and your colleagues are conspiracy theorists of the worst kind.

The more you promote the notion that NASA, DoD, and others had bought into the
JC brothers' extraordinary claims, the more you promote the notion that their
later silence and denial were the result of a broad conspiracy that involved
hundreds if not thousands of people. And on both sides of the iron curtain!
It requires a great leap of faith to believe that such a conspiracy could be
successfully coordinated for over four decades!

But, please, don't let my comments stop you. It will be interesting to see
how deep you can dig this hole while in a full state of self denial.

--
Dave Michelson

On or about Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:32:19 GMT, Dave Michelson made the sensational claim that:
Giovanni,

You do realize, I trust, that this sort of "evidence" simply confirms that you
and your colleagues are conspiracy theorists of the worst kind.

After all the **** that's gone on in here the past 3 years, you can call Gio
the *worst*? Hellfire, he's the *best* kind.
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