The gates of Thebes

I was looking for the meaning of the seven gates of Thebes,
some of them I can find, but some I can find no reference to,
can tell me what they mean?

Procotides.........Thera.......Protides.......Poet ides
Electrae...........Cleodoxe....Electran.......Elec tra
Neistae or Neitae..Astynome....Neistae........Neitae
Ilomolaides........Astycratia..Pallas Onca's..Hypsistae
Ogygiae............Ogyia.......Borean.........Ogyg ian
Hypsistac..........Chias.......Homuloid.......Homo lodies
Crenacae...........Chloris.....'Ruin'.........Cren aeae

and how, or if, they're significant in anyway to these planets?

1.Moon,
2.Mercury
3.Venus
4.Sun
5.Mars
6.Jupiter
7.Saturn

Thanks,

Nicki

On May 2, 4:03 pm, Nicci wrote:
I was looking for the meaning of the seven gates of Thebes,
some of them I can find, but some I can find no reference to,
can tell me what they mean?

Procotides.........Thera.......Protides.......Poet ides
Electrae...........Cleodoxe....Electran.......Elec tra
Neistae or Neitae..Astynome....Neistae........Neitae
Ilomolaides........Astycratia..Pallas Onca's..Hypsistae
Ogygiae............Ogyia.......Borean.........Ogyg ian
Hypsistac..........Chias.......Homuloid.......Homo lodies
Crenacae...........Chloris.....'Ruin'.........Cren aeae

and how, or if, they're significant in anyway to these planets?

1.Moon,
2.Mercury
3.Venus
4.Sun
5.Mars
6.Jupiter
7.Saturn

Thanks,

Nicki

Nicki,
I always enjoy putting together puzzles like this and although
I'm not especially good at it I have come up with a few items.

The first column I believe are Latin derivatives. At least they
have the familiar case endings of Latin. The second column
contains the Greek (originals). So here it goes as far as
meanings are concerned:
Thera - refers to a female servant but I'm sure it derives from
theri'zo, meaning "I harvest".
Cleodoxe is from kleos (praise) + doxa (glory)
Astynome derives from "astu" (city) + nomos (law)
Astykratia comes from astu + kratos (power)
Ogyia is tough. The only mention I could find is in
Michael Grant's *The Rise of the Greeks* and he says
that the first king of Thebes was Ogyges. So
I believe the name applies to him. (Probably means
"followers of Ogyges")
Chias- (?) May be from Chios, the birthplace of Homer.
Chloris (green) was a common name for Roman women but
to the Greeks it was an epithet for the nightengale
that always dwelt in green foliage.

As far as astronomical significance is concerned in the early
Boeotian period the was almost certainly a reference to the
Sun (probably Cleodoxe) and the Moon (Thera). Jupiter, who
was usually "Zeu Pater" (father Zeus) might have been
signified by Astykratia or Asytnome.
Hope this helps.
Hope this posts. Im having ISP trouble.

Ben

On 4 May, 10:08, Ben wrote:
On May 2, 4:03 pm, Nicci wrote:





I was looking for the meaning of the seven gates of Thebes,
some of them I can find, but some I can find no reference to,
can tell me what they mean?

Procotides.........Thera.......Protides.......Poet ides
Electrae...........Cleodoxe....Electran.......Elec tra
Neistae or Neitae..Astynome....Neistae........Neitae
Ilomolaides........Astycratia..Pallas Onca's..Hypsistae
Ogygiae............Ogyia.......Borean.........Ogyg ian
Hypsistac..........Chias.......Homuloid.......Homo lodies
Crenacae...........Chloris.....'Ruin'.........Cren aeae

and how, or if, they're significant in anyway to these planets?

1.Moon,
2.Mercury
3.Venus
4.Sun
5.Mars
6.Jupiter
7.Saturn

Thanks,

Nicki

Nicki,
I always enjoy putting together puzzles like this and although
I'm not especially good at it I have come up with a few items.

The first column I believe are Latin derivatives. At least they
have the familiar case endings of Latin. The second column
contains the Greek (originals). So here it goes as far as
meanings are concerned:
Thera - refers to a female servant but I'm sure it derives from
theri'zo, meaning "I harvest".
Cleodoxe is from kleos (praise) + doxa (glory)
Astynome derives from "astu" (city) + nomos (law)
Astykratia comes from astu + kratos (power)
Ogyia is tough. The only mention I could find is in
Michael Grant's *The Rise of the Greeks* and he says
that the first king of Thebes was Ogyges. So
I believe the name applies to him. (Probably means
"followers of Ogyges")
Chias- (?) May be from Chios, the birthplace of Homer.
Chloris (green) was a common name for Roman women but
to the Greeks it was an epithet for the nightengale
that always dwelt in green foliage.

As far as astronomical significance is concerned in the early
Boeotian period the was almost certainly a reference to the
Sun (probably Cleodoxe) and the Moon (Thera). Jupiter, who
was usually "Zeu Pater" (father Zeus) might have been
signified by Astykratia or Asytnome.
Hope this helps.
Hope this posts. Im having ISP trouble.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank-you everso much,

I knew that Thera, 'Chios' and Ogyia were islands, and that
the mythological persons and ancient names coincide with
some of the present named constellations and planets,
I imagined that there might be some link or other with the 7
gates or names of the daughters (one ref said there were
10 sons also! but I think thats from an earlier in myth)
Alternatively gates to a city are generally an in-bound route
from main roads to/from other main cities, maybe ones lost
to us without archaeological evidence,

ta!

n.

Astynome derives from "astu" (city) + nomos (law)
Astykratia comes from astu + kratos (power)

Hmmm,

Astynome and Astykratia are both feminine - they wouldn't
apply to Zeus. Who then? (think, think)

Thank-you everso much,

I knew that Thera, 'Chios' and Ogyia were islands, and that
the mythological persons and ancient names coincide with
some of the present named constellations and planets,

I browsed through Richard H. Allen's *Star Names* which is
about the `ne plus ultra' in that field and could find no reference
to the names or to Thebes. This is a tough one.

I imagined that there might be some link or other with the 7
gates or names of the daughters (one ref said there were
10 sons also! but I think thats from an earlier in myth)

Yes, Ogyia could also mean "the children of Ogyges".

Alternatively gates to a city are generally an in-bound route
from main roads to/from other main cities, maybe ones lost
to us without archaeological evidence,

Like Sybaris, that the Crotonians utterly destroyed and then
diverted the River Crathis to cover its ruins. The river dried
up over the centuries and the site of Sybaris was discovered
in 1967.

Regards

Ben, 90.126 n 35.539

- Show quoted text -

On May 4, 12:12 pm, Ben wrote:
Astynome derives from "astu" (city) + nomos (law)
Astykratia comes from astu + kratos (power)

Hmmm,

Astynome and Astykratia are both feminine - they wouldn't
apply to Zeus. Who then? (think, think)

Thank-you everso much,

I knew that Thera, 'Chios' and Ogyia were islands, and that
the mythological persons and ancient names coincide with
some of the present named constellations and planets,

I browsed through Richard H. Allen's *Star Names* which is
about the `ne plus ultra' in that field

100 years ago, maybe. Vast amounts of work on ancient and classical
astronomy have been done since.

and could find no reference
to the names or to Thebes. This is a tough one.

I imagined that there might be some link or other with the 7
gates or names of the daughters (one ref said there were
10 sons also! but I think thats from an earlier in myth)

Yes, Ogyia could also mean "the children of Ogyges".

Alternatively gates to a city are generally an in-bound route
from main roads to/from other main cities, maybe ones lost
to us without archaeological evidence,

Like Sybaris, that the Crotonians utterly destroyed and then
diverted the River Crathis to cover its ruins. The river dried
up over the centuries and the site of Sybaris was discovered
in 1967.

On May 4, 11:44 am, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
On May 4, 12:12 pm, Ben wrote:





Astynome derives from "astu" (city) + nomos (law)
Astykratia comes from astu + kratos (power)

Hmmm,

Astynome and Astykratia are both feminine - they wouldn't
apply to Zeus. Who then? (think, think)

Now that I step back and look at the list again I see that
*all the names are feminine*. What Nicki has supplied us
with is possibly an early list of the Pleiades.

Allen suggests that the notion of the "seven sisters" as
originating in Babylon and as it was spread through a
chain of city states each one supplied its own mythos.
Since every city state was its own center of the universe
one can conclude that they represented the seven daughters
of King Ogyges.

Electra is suspiciously present in both lists.
The classical list of the daughter of Atlas is:
Alcyone, Maia, ELECTRA, Merope, Taygeta,
Celaeno and Sterope.

Ben

On May 4, 2:50 pm, Ben wrote:
On May 4, 11:44 am, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:

Absolutely nothing that was quoted below.

On May 4, 12:12 pm, Ben wrote:

Astynome derives from "astu" (city) + nomos (law)
Astykratia comes from astu + kratos (power)

Hmmm,

Astynome and Astykratia are both feminine - they wouldn't
apply to Zeus. Who then? (think, think)

Now that I step back and look at the list again I see that
*all the names are feminine*. What Nicki has supplied us
with is possibly an early list of the Pleiades.

Allen suggests that the notion of the "seven sisters" as
originating in Babylon and as it was spread through a
chain of city states each one supplied its own mythos.
Since every city state was its own center of the universe
one can conclude that they represented the seven daughters
of King Ogyges.

Did Allen consult the work of Erica Reiner, David Pingree, and
Francesca Rochberg (among others) that was published between 1980 and
today? Not to mention Otto Neugebauer, Abraham Sachs, and Hermann
Hunger?

Electra is suspiciously present in both lists.
The classical list of the daughter of Atlas is:
Alcyone, Maia, ELECTRA, Merope, Taygeta,
Celaeno and Sterope.

On May 4, 4:12 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:

Did Allen consult the work of Erica Reiner, David Pingree, and
Francesca Rochberg (among others) that was published between 1980 and
today? Not to mention Otto Neugebauer, Abraham Sachs, and Hermann
Hunger?

No, he refers to several classical sources: Virgil, Cicero,
Hipparchus, Hyginus, Ovid and Theon Junior and (more
recently) Pickering, Admiral Smyth and Hyde's translation
of Ulug Beg's `Tables'.

I consulted Michael Grant, Joseph Campbell,
George Autenreith (Univ Of Oklahoma) and Sir James Frazer
and found little to enchance the topic save my own
speculation.

Did any of the sources you cited have anything to say
about any of the names Nicki furnished? I would be
interested to know. Archeoastronomy fascinates
me but I don't really have the time to attend to it like
I want to.

Ben

On May 4, 11:09 pm, Ben wrote:
On May 4, 4:12 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:



Did Allen consult the work of Erica Reiner, David Pingree, and
Francesca Rochberg (among others) that was published between 1980 and
today? Not to mention Otto Neugebauer, Abraham Sachs, and Hermann
Hunger?

No, he refers to several classical sources: Virgil, Cicero,
Hipparchus, Hyginus, Ovid and Theon Junior and (more
recently) Pickering, Admiral Smyth and Hyde's translation
of Ulug Beg's `Tables'.

Do you still not grasp that a book published a century ago is likely
not to contain the most up-to-date information?

I consulted Michael Grant, Joseph Campbell,
George Autenreith (Univ Of Oklahoma) and Sir James Frazer
and found little to enchance the topic save my own
speculation.

None of the three of whom I've heard of is a specialist, and none of
them is competent in Akkadian or Arabic.

Did any of the sources you cited have anything to say
about any of the names Nicki furnished? I would be
interested to know. Archeoastronomy fascinates
me but I don't really have the time to attend to it like
I want to.

How should I know?? They're the authors of standard works on
Mesopotamian astronomy.

On May 4, 10:28 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
On May 4, 11:09 pm, Ben wrote:

Do you still not grasp that a book published a century ago is likely
not to contain the most up-to-date information?

But of course-
Here are the most recent facts concerning Thebes:

(1) It was not in Mesopotamia; It was in Boeotia. (c.f. supra)

(2) It was utterly destroyed by Alexander the Great
in 335 B.C.

(3) Most of the inhabitants were killed.

(4) They're still dead.

You are a trolling pismire and as Mozart once remarked,
"I have no desire to duel with dwarves."

plonk

None of the three of whom I've heard of is a specialist, and none of
them is competent in Akkadian or Arabic.

How should I know?? They're the authors of standard works on
Mesopotamian astronomy.