Foveon's revolutionary X3 sensor !?

Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is _noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging' when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is _noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging' when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes

According to the article I read, they offer the Sigma camera with X3 chip,
up to 1600 ISO setting and 30 sec bulb, very low noise. That's pritty
sensitive. Camera is $3000.

Julius


"Roger Hamlett" wrote in message
...

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll
colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is
_noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging' when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes

According to the article I read, they offer the Sigma camera with X3 chip,
up to 1600 ISO setting and 30 sec bulb, very low noise. That's pritty
sensitive. Camera is $3000.

Julius


"Roger Hamlett" wrote in message
...

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll
colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is
_noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging' when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:29:57 GMT, "Szaki" wrote:

Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Nope, not even close. While no color sensor is very good for astronomical
imaging, this one is particularly poor. It is noisy, has low sensitivity, and
very poor color definition (that is, there is a lot of crosstalk between the
color channels). This last problem is dealt with by using some very clever
signal processing (really, what Foveon is best at), but this is of no use at all
when imaging sources heavy on narrow emission line sources, as you find with
many astronomical targets. I expect this technology is at least a few years away
from what Canon CMOS detectors are already capable of.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:29:57 GMT, "Szaki" wrote:

Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Nope, not even close. While no color sensor is very good for astronomical
imaging, this one is particularly poor. It is noisy, has low sensitivity, and
very poor color definition (that is, there is a lot of crosstalk between the
color channels). This last problem is dealt with by using some very clever
signal processing (really, what Foveon is best at), but this is of no use at all
when imaging sources heavy on narrow emission line sources, as you find with
many astronomical targets. I expect this technology is at least a few years away
from what Canon CMOS detectors are already capable of.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

"Szaki" wrote in message
news:lzbXb.28944$jk2.68624@attbi_s53...
According to the article I read, they offer the Sigma camera with X3 chip,
up to 1600 ISO setting and 30 sec bulb, very low noise. That's pritty
sensitive. Camera is $3000.

Julius
It is worth understanding that astronomical CCD's, have 'ASA equivalence'
figures typically over 30000ASA. As for 'low noise', forget it.
The noise is variable on the colour channels. The 'top' channel, is
reasonable (but still poor compared to other normal cameras on the market),
but the channels in the base of the chip exhibit very poor noise behaviour.
There is also a rather nasty 'crosstalk' behaviour, which can largely be
processed out, when dealing with 'continous tone' images, but not on point
source images...

Best Wishes

"Roger Hamlett" wrote in message
...

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll
colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is
_noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging' when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes

"Szaki" wrote in message
news:lzbXb.28944$jk2.68624@attbi_s53...
According to the article I read, they offer the Sigma camera with X3 chip,
up to 1600 ISO setting and 30 sec bulb, very low noise. That's pritty
sensitive. Camera is $3000.

Julius
It is worth understanding that astronomical CCD's, have 'ASA equivalence'
figures typically over 30000ASA. As for 'low noise', forget it.
The noise is variable on the colour channels. The 'top' channel, is
reasonable (but still poor compared to other normal cameras on the market),
but the channels in the base of the chip exhibit very poor noise behaviour.
There is also a rather nasty 'crosstalk' behaviour, which can largely be
processed out, when dealing with 'continous tone' images, but not on point
source images...

Best Wishes

"Roger Hamlett" wrote in message
...

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll
colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is
_noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging' when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes

I believe this was a seriously valid complaint with the first gen Sigma
Foveron based digital SLR (the model 9), but the preliminary test reports
and comments I've seen for the new model 10 (which is barely out of the
Sigma shop gates at present) show some absolutely great long exposure
terrestrial nightime shots by comparison, with comments that Sigma
listened to all of the complaints and responded to them. I'm not sure how
this would equate to long term astro exposures, but the overall general
use terrestrial test results (at least) for the new Sigma SLR tend to
equal and/or best the top of the line Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Pentax
....efforts from what I can tell. The biggest serious complaint at present
is that it takes only raw format images. No gif, etc... unless you work
the raw images in software to convert them. Another complaint is that it
takes forever to get the huge raw format images into the computer so they
can be mainpulated. A Sigma astro drawback in my book is that the Foveron
chips overall dimensions are much smaller than those of the Canon's CCD
chip, so the astro photo TFOV potential is seriously hindered by
comparison (if my understanding of these things is correct here).

Lawrence Sayre

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:14:59 -0000, Roger Hamlett
wrote:


"Szaki" wrote in message
news:lzbXb.28944$jk2.68624@attbi_s53...
According to the article I read, they offer the Sigma camera with X3
chip,
up to 1600 ISO setting and 30 sec bulb, very low noise. That's pritty
sensitive. Camera is $3000.

Julius
It is worth understanding that astronomical CCD's, have 'ASA equivalence'
figures typically over 30000ASA. As for 'low noise', forget it.
The noise is variable on the colour channels. The 'top' channel, is
reasonable (but still poor compared to other normal cameras on the
market),
but the channels in the base of the chip exhibit very poor noise
behaviour.
There is also a rather nasty 'crosstalk' behaviour, which can largely be
processed out, when dealing with 'continous tone' images, but not on
point
source images...

Best Wishes

"Roger Hamlett" wrote in message
...

"Szaki" wrote in message
newslbXb.28388$yE5.103520@attbi_s54...
Would this new chip revolutionise ccd-astronomy also? It uses fulll
colour
layered sensor array!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021101foveonx3.asp

Julius
No.
It has been discussed several times in the past. At present, it is
_noisy_,
and sensitivity is very poor. It is possible that in ten years time, a
'third generation' version, _may_ become something of interest to
astronomers.
It is worth noting, that Foveon have their own 'recommended
application'
list, and carefully exclude both astronomy, and 'low light imaging'
when
talking about this sensor. However they make other sensors, and in
some
cases recommend these for such applications.
It is not 'new'. The chip was launched in the middle of last year, and
cameras have been available with the sensor for several months.

Best Wishes










--
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My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as
a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral
purpose of his life, with productive achievement as
his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
------------------------------------------------------------------------