SETI: call to arms!

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically speaking.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html

Bruno,

"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message
om...
Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically
speaking.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html

I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!
Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little green
men yet" :-)
It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....

Bruno,

"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message
om...
Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically
speaking.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html

I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!
Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little green
men yet" :-)
It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

Regards, Jason H.

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

Regards, Jason H.

Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars & Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too, and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes) it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home 24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars & Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too, and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes) it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...
Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home
24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is
true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &
Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about
extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad
to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,
and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to
seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I
think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)
it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...
Jason,

"Jason H." wrote in message
ink.net...
Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:
Bruno,


"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

om...

Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.

Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI
facility
(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home
24/7
they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little
green
men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)

It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get
serious
support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the
dedicated
few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....



If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is
true,
but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &
Europa
and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about
extra-solar
planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad
to
hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,
and
much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to
seti@home
more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I
think
it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)
it
to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Well, a science without a subject is not really a science except in
terms of the science of the search strategy and the medium itself (FFT,
electromagnetic spectrum, the sorts of signals we might hope to find).
All sort of other sciences (from archaeology to zoology) employ search
strategies but are aided with the benefits of finding things, confirming
theories, etc.

If SETI regularly found signals, and we decoded some of them with a
lexicon, etc. then we'd have HUGE science on our hands, not just the
science of a search strategy.

Science isn't just a search. Someone goes out on a sampling expedition
and uncovers a dinosaur skeleton. An amateur could have just as easily
done this. But to describe it as a new species, excavate and
reconstruct it -- that's where the scientist makes his grand entry. And
to publish, get the award, pad his vitae, and get more funding for the
next cycle -- that's the expectation of the scientist.


Rob Dekker wrote:
I agree : in my opinion, what we are doing with SETI still feels very
'alien'
to many people around us. They dont see it as science in the way
that other space explorations are seen as science.

When I talk to my friends about SETI, I find that they admire my
passion for the subject, and are impressed by the 4 million S@H 'ers,
but they dont really see the relation between seti and
more traditional forms of science for extraterrestial life.

So, I dont think that finding microbes on Europa (the moon, that is )
or Mars would change much about people's perception of SETI.
Even finding signs of oxygen or methane on a extrasolar planet
would still be seen as an incentive to boost SETI's funding.
It's a different form of science.

I believe that we are performing a science which is clearly
complementary to other searches for ET life.
But we did not show many facts for this yet !
So can we compare SETI to search for oxygen in extrasolar planets ?
Can we can make some calculations which makes this comparison clear ?

Something like this :
If we would live 100 lightyears from earth, would we first detect earth as
a planet, then earth's oxygen and then earth's radio/radar transmissions ?
Or would it be much easier to detect radio/radar transmissions ?

Basically, can we make it obvious that SETI is a cost-effective
way of searching extraterrestial life if it exists ?

If we can make this scientific comparison, then surely we should
at least be able to convice people with common-sense that
SETI is a viable scientific undertaking.
At that point, we turn SETI into a normal science. Which will
no longer be rediculed.

But frankly, I don't think we have shown this (comparison) yet..

Rob

"Alfred A. Aburto Jr." wrote in message
m...

Jason,


"Jason H." wrote in message

hlink.net...

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:

Bruno,



"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote in message

le.com...


Fellow SETI enthusiasts: We are missing the boat on
President Bush's new "Moon, Mars and Beyond" program!
This editorial is nothing less than a call to arms, metaphorically

speaking.


I recall thinking at the time that this initiative was announced that
this would be a good opportunity to do the long-talked-about
lunar-farside radio-telescope project (although the President's
initiative seems impossibly under-funded, there obviously are other
valuable astronomy-related uses for a radio-telescope array on the lunar
farside (perhaps a second generation High Resolution Microwave Survey
(Project Phoenix's predecessor I believe) is in order? ;^) Even if
congress eventually kills the funding (again) perhaps the seed money
will lead to a SETI program that can be taken over by universities or a
certain not-for-profit SETI Organization? (although we are talking about
mega-money here, once a robotic scope is setup, it's
low-to-no-maintenance and perhaps managable by smaller entities than the
a government?) Also, the radio-astronomy dual-use means there are other
science allies in the promotion of the idea.


Instead of using the Moon as just a "stepping stone to Mars",
as the US President's proposal has outlined, a lunar farside SETI

facility

(radio astronomy dishes linked like the Allen-array network,
and an optical cluster there as well for the Laser SETI Searchers)
offers as its reward the possible detection of a Galactic Internet,
not merely the frozen/fossilized microbes likely to be found on Mars.


Moon Yes, Mars No!
by Ron Sirull
http://www.setileague.org/editor/moonyes.htm


Why should Moon and Mars be mutually exclusive? (or conversely why are
they related at all?) Scarcity of science funds is one issue obviously,
but I don't see why the two are connected, positively or negatively.

Unfortunately, aside from robots being able to do Mars cheaper and
cleaner, I think that some of the new projects, especially the Jupiter
Icy Moons project and Moon, Mars & Beyond are all ways of helping the
compact nuclear power reactor industry to get more funding (I believe
the NASA administrator's father was a nuclear Navy officer too?) So I
don't think they have radio-astronomy science in mind (but there perhaps
is a synergy here that could help both.) I also could see another
reason why the administrator (being the son of a squid, it's an Army
thing :^) would be for this too, because there are (IMO) seemingly so
many similarities (IMO) between a seaman's life and that of an
interplanetary space-farer (solitude, comradery, adventure) and the
power demands are perhaps greater than the Sun can provide, especially
if one is doing the "Beyond" part. It seems like a natural mesh, at
least seemingly from the administrator's point of view (but I still
don't want them to launch the nuclear power source over my house!)



Clear skies from NW Italy! ;-)

Bruno Moretti
Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Ham Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR
http://setiboinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ap...y.php?teamid=8
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/s...team_7422.html


I don't know about that! SETI seems to be too far out on the fringe of
"science". People, in general, everywhere, are "attracted" to the
possibility of other life "out there", but yet they joke about it too!

Like you said though Al, people are "attracted". Until recently I would
have agreed with you about people joking about SETI Al, but today I feel
that we are getting beyond that (some of the ignorant class though will
always be there.) I've gone to several astronomy-related public viewing
events where I've interacted with hundreds of people. There is a
sizeable crowd out there who support the search (perhaps more so than
ever.) If we don't promote the search aggressively (whatever method you
plug is up to you) we will not progress to better public-awareness.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Invariably when I tell someone I have 7 computers running seti@home

24/7

they get this friendly smile on their face and say: "found any little

green

men yet" :-)

I get bizarre looks sometimes from people when talking about the subject
(especially from religious nuts) and frankly, their signs of ignorance
to me are just evidence of an educational/awareness-building challenge.
We need to come out-of-our-shells to promote SETI and not fear
ridicule. Too much is at stake! I'm sure that the original NASA SETI
proponents (pre-congressional cuts) faced a much tougher crowd (and look
how far they got.)


It is a noble quest, but it is on the fringe and not likely to get

serious

support from the public in general ... what is inspiring is the

dedicated

few that keep the search going with almost no funding ....




If SETI is not 'in-their-face', some will continue to think of the
subject at arms-length, where it is socially acceptable to ridicule the
subject (because of ignorance). This can only be overcome by education,
promotion, marketing and selling the virtues of this search to the
public. We can't afford to put our tails between our legs every time
somebody scoffs at it and hope to eat the crumbs that are left over.
We must be SETI educators. If we are passive, we gain less than if we
are goal oriented. Even if we don't achieve our goals, we will be
better off than if we don't try to reach them at all.

The people I speak of are not ignorant. They are my friends (old it is

true,

but my friends and they are engineers and scientists. They believe that
there are others out there. They show great interest when I explain about
the complex molecules found in space, the prospect of life on Mars &

Europa

and perhaps many places, the early start of life on Earth, about

extra-solar

planets, and on and on, but still, STILL!, they kid me (in a friendly way
of course) about the "little green men" and the bottom line is they would
not spend hard earned money on the quest (not much anyway)! This is my
observation ... perhaps others, as you, find differently and I'd be glad

to

hear about it too ....there seems to be only a few which have a great
passion for SETI (enough that they would do what I do, many others too,

and

much, much, more than I do) ... You know, I think I contribute to

seti@home

more than the norm, but yet I'm embarrassed to say what I do contribute is
almost nothing! I must suffer from the same attitute! ... I contribute
countless hours of CPU time, (almost every day for over 5 years now I take
care of the seti@home processing) but very little funding in support of
seti@home, why? What is it that holds people back (holds me back!!)? I

think

it is because SETI, despite everything is viewed as "fringe science" ...
Hubble on the other hand (or the space station) ... well, you know
(billions, even after a horrible blunder!) ...
We're going to have to do real good first (!), like find life, without
question, on Mars or Europa or somewhere, before we'll (SETI) make(makes)

it

to the big time. Until then, it is going to be a hard and almost thankless
task ...
Al


Regards, Jason H.