The "C" in Celestron now stands for COMMUNIST!

During the 1950s the PRC killed millions of Chinese people who
were _not_ "willing to set aside or defer political and individual
freedoms in the pursuit of economic wealth". They would rather have
had liberty, which in America is the freedom of individual action
towards goals that one sets for one's self in order to create and keep
wealth, trade freely, and prosper.

You make it sound like the millions who died in this period (1950s)
were freedom fighters. Not quite, this is what actually happened:

"In an attempt to restructure China's primarily agrarian economy, Mao
undertook the 'Great Leap Forward' campaign in 1958, a disastrous
program that aimed to combine the establishment of rural communes with
a crash program of village industrialization. The Great Leap forced the
abandonment of farming activities, leading to widespread famine in
which more than 20 million people died of malnutrition." Source:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107411.html

I don't deny what happened during the cultural revolution but let's not
forget that this thread is about PRESENT-DAY China, i.e., post Mao,
post Deng. The current regime has no great human rights record either,
but given what happened to the USSR and other east-bloc countries,
China has not only managed to avoid economic disaster but also it's own
break-up. There is a reason why the PRC flag has five stars.

It's irrelevant if I'm sympathetic to the "party line" or even if I'm
their ****ing parrot, so long as you recognize that you and just about
everyone in America will still be queuing up to buy from the "party",
consciously or not, to your liking or not, for the next, what, century
or more?

Look at it another way. Taking your and Rich's logic one step further,
should the PRC ask themselves, as a gov't or as a people, why they
would trade with a nation that has supported or instituted repressive,
undemocratic and cruel regimes and/or has and continues to invade
dozens of sovereign nations, whilst in the name of "freedom" and "war
on terror" but ultimately in the pursuit of self-interest and
consequently having inflicted countless loss of life, unimaginable
suffering and endless economic and social turmoil?

So get off of your high horse.

AstroHoney

"Rob Johnson" wrote in message
...

You mean because you don't value those of us in Los Angeles?



Don't take it personal, but it's the entire state of California.......
Ya all don't seem to want to get along with the rest of US.

Don't worry, I'll miss Celestron and Meade when it happens..... LoL


When they can reach the east coast, than you will see some action.
G























Allan


--
Only A Gentleman Can Insult Me And A True Gentleman Never Will

In article ,
"AM" wrote:
"Rob Johnson" wrote in message
...

You mean because you don't value those of us in Los Angeles?



Don't take it personal, but it's the entire state of California.......
Ya all don't seem to want to get along with the rest of US.

Don't worry, I'll miss Celestron and Meade when it happens..... LoL


When they can reach the east coast, than you will see some action.
G

Then visitors can come to Virginia for the fallout foliage tours.

Rob Johnson
take out the trash before replying

On 22 Jun 2005 21:57:49 -0700, "AstroHoney"
wrote:

During the 1950s the PRC killed millions of Chinese people who
were _not_ "willing to set aside or defer political and individual
freedoms in the pursuit of economic wealth". They would rather have
had liberty, which in America is the freedom of individual action
towards goals that one sets for one's self in order to create and keep
wealth, trade freely, and prosper.

You make it sound like the millions who died in this period (1950s)
were freedom fighters. Not quite, this is what actually happened:

"In an attempt to restructure China's primarily agrarian economy, Mao
undertook the 'Great Leap Forward' campaign in 1958, a disastrous
program that aimed to combine the establishment of rural communes with
a crash program of village industrialization. The Great Leap forced the
abandonment of farming activities, leading to widespread famine in
which more than 20 million people died of malnutrition." Source:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107411.html


Yes, that's when the deluded, homicidal communist scum decided that
plant genetics didn't exist because it was contrary to the theories
of communism.
-Rich

Well...it *is* a big wall...

--Darin

www.darinboville.com

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:33:31 -0400, RichA wrote:

The majority are still dirt poor by any Western standard.
*****

And is western standards teh gold standard for happiness and long
life?

james

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:33:31 -0400, RichA wrote:

Nothing proves that, not a thing. Chinese lived disorder lives (they
were essentially a hodgepodge of feudal states) before Western
influence penetrated their culture. The only order came from
servitude to a ruling class that made the European elite look like
egalitarians. IMO, you've got that typical wide-eyed Western view of
the Chinese that just does not match reality.
********

You know less about the Chinese than you do about Communism.

The hodge podge of feudal states that had an armada of ships engaged
in trade over the Pacific rim and to southern Africa while the king of
England was beheading his wives because they could not bear him a son.

I could go on. But you would be bored to death. You simply do not
understand the oriental culture and their religions.

james

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:17:06 -0400, Steve Sherman
wrote:

One small point about
"that products on the shelf in China is priced such
that the masses can afford them."
You should all know by now that price is "what the market will bear".
The same for labor cost. It is the same for communist and democracies.
The communist may have little money, thus the price is less.
Lets face it - We (the rich) are dumb as rocks. We are happy to spend $1.50
for 12 oz of water to drink, while we complain about the gas that cost
$2.10 a gallon....

Steve
*****

A good point in that we here in the US pay more per gallon for bottled
water than for gasoline and don't even flinch.

In western society we have guaged what is sucess by the possesions we
can garner in our lifetime. What we pay for stuff is of little
importance. I have lived among Haitians that have migrated here to the
US. They value their health and family far more than many of their
possesions. That too can change as their wealth increases.

james

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:29 -0400, RichA wrote:

Yes, that's when the deluded, homicidal communist scum decided that
plant genetics didn't exist because it was contrary to the theories
of communism.
-Rich
*****

Yep, since communism is an economic theory, it would have little to do
with genetics which is a field of science.

james

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:28:19 GMT, james wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:29 -0400, RichA wrote:

Yes, that's when the deluded, homicidal communist scum decided that
plant genetics didn't exist because it was contrary to the theories
of communism.
-Rich
*****

Yep, since communism is an economic theory, it would have little to do
with genetics which is a field of science.

james

You should have told them that because they thought it meant there was
no such thing as inhereted characteristics, that's what they applied
to agriculture. Russia made the same stupid assumptions.