The "C" in Celestron now stands for COMMUNIST!

In article ,
"Clayton E. Cramer" wrote:
AstroHoney wrote:
I think you have your head shoved up McCarthy's arse. If Celestron had
been bought by a Canadian company, American's would bemoaning that
production had moved to a
gun-registry-bilingual-gay-marriage-pot-smoking country
(but-at-least-still-better-than-China).

I'm not worried about Canada going to war against the U.S. China has
made it clear that we should worry about whether we value Los Angeles
more than Taiwan.

I am trying not to buy anything made in the People's Republic of China.
I try very hard to buy Taiwanese for that same reason.

You mean because you don't value those of us in Los Angeles?

Rob Johnson
take out the trash before replying

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:38:24 GMT, james wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:43:20 -0400, RichA wrote:

I love how people are so cavlier about this, as if THEIR own jobs
will never be threatened by competition from a vastly lower-paid
Indian or Chinese workforce.
*****

Rich

I have lost my job indirectly to China. And not a simple manufacturing
job either. I lost a hitech job. You know one of those $50K to 75K per
yr type.

I totally understand why and how I lost my job. The thing is there is
no union that could have stopped it or anything that I could have done
about it. It was a business decision that the company I worked for
made and I was the odd man out. Do I like no. But am I going to cry
about it, no. Life goes on. I just have to change my expectations of
life until things change.

You blast companies for moving jobs and manufacturing overseas, yet I
bet you would be the first to complain about the high prices that it
would cost if it were made here. I have knowledge of cost accounting
and what is involved in manufacturing here in the US. IF you want to
compete in the low price market while manufacturing here in the US you
need lots of capital and be able to do tens of millions per yr of any
product. Any run rate of less than a million per yr is not worththe
effort to manufacture here in the US and compete in the low cost
market. IF you do a run rate of 30,000 units per year, you are not
going to compete with overseas prices.

Companies need at least 12% return on net assets to make money and
keep investors happy. If you happen to make a product that uses a
chemical that is harmfull to the environment, that is going to cost
you a bundle to dispose of it in a proper landfill. Heck in the US
today you can't even ship a one pound spool of lead bearing solder
anymore via airmail. It has to go ground and carries a hazardous
materials label one it. I wanted to buy larger quantities of PCB
etchant solution and the shipping cost more than the product simply
because it was labeled hazardous materials.

The US workforce is in a state of change and has been for about 20 yrs
now. The move to offshore work is not new. It started over 20 yrs ago.
It is just become noticed due to the economic slowdown of 2000. We
have one consolation. As it looks now the companies are starting to
run out of poor countries with large cheap workforce and stable
governments. The key is stable governments.

Thirty to forty yrs from now, the US may very well be one of those
countries where there is a large cheap workforce and a stable
government. Then the tide will turn. Manufacturing will return.

james

Actually, I'm not blasting companies for looking for cheaper labour.
Low wages do not a totalitarian society make.
-Rich

In article ,
says...

(G.T.) wrote in
:


"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
...
In oups.com
"Matthew Ota" wrote:

Our American culture, IMHO is too Euro-centric. Most Americans
cannot differentiate between any Asian counry or culture. This
is a good example.

Not really; the poster was a Canadian and a troll.


Canada was in America last I checked. The USA is a country,
America is not.

Canada is in North America.

Tell a Canadian he's an American and see what reaction you get.

One could turn the tables though: if someone says "I'm from America",
one could ask "Are you from North America or South America" ? :-)

We have a similar problem here in Europe, where the EU is often
referred to as just "Europe" .....


--
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at saaf dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:41:58 -0400, RichA wrote:

Yes, lacking ANY indication at all that the average Chinese person
wants to live under oppression because of the side benefit of
increasing wealth, we should assume that's the case. In fact, lets
not help the Africans either, because for all we know, they like the
AIDS epidemic because it reduces the number of mouths to feed!
*******

Rich

Have you been to Mainland China or Taiwan?

While I have not, I have friends that have. You will be surprised that
products on the shelf in China is priced such that the masses can
afford them.

Your arguement is to push western experiences and beliefs onto their
culture. Your expressions show little understanding of Chinese
culture. While they wish freedom, order in their lives is far more
imporatant. China is still an agrarian society with primative
agricultural methods, by western standards. Their expectations are not
as high as ours are. The communist government of China is not the
hardline type like Stalin. China is moving ever so slowly from Mao's
ideals. I would say that China's communism "fall" will be about 30yrs
behind that of Russia's. By about 2010 to 2020, there should be noone
left that directly served with Chairman Mao. China will then be like
Russia, elect their own Goochy Gorby. Gorbechev(SP?) was the first
Russian premier that had no ties to Stalin. It took nearly 35 yrs
after Stalin's death for Gorby to come to power. We are now 30 yrs
after Mao's death. SO maybe in five to fifteen yrs China will elect a
Chairman will lead China into a more democratic society.

I do forsee changes in China's internal politics in the near future.
As China emerges futher out of their isolationistic past, they will
have to deal with internal politics and economics that if not
addressed will rip the country apart.

james

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:01:44 -0400, RichA wrote:

Actually, I'm not blasting companies for looking for cheaper labour.
Low wages do not a totalitarian society make.
-Rich
******

Correct,labor costs do not make a totalitarian state. Totalitarianism
can come to any government. Even in the US the laws can be made so
that they become over opressive and unbearable.

james

Clayton:


Clayton E. Cramer wrote:

[...]

Actually, it has a bit more to do with China's fiddling with the
exchange rate for the yuan. The U.S. isn't the only country upset about
this.




The big laugh on the USA fiscal conservatives will be if the PRC ever
adopts the redeemable gold based currency and coinage system. That would
make their money the soundest in the hemisphere.

Philosophically, however, the PRC is committed to inflation. And, is the
inflation only reserved to help destroy Capitalist nations?

Ralph Hertle

I can tell you which scope I'll never buy.

-JATO
http://jatobservatory.org

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:17:39 GMT, james wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:41:58 -0400, RichA wrote:

Yes, lacking ANY indication at all that the average Chinese person
wants to live under oppression because of the side benefit of
increasing wealth, we should assume that's the case. In fact, lets
not help the Africans either, because for all we know, they like the
AIDS epidemic because it reduces the number of mouths to feed!
*******

Rich

Have you been to Mainland China or Taiwan?

While I have not, I have friends that have. You will be surprised that
products on the shelf in China is priced such that the masses can
afford them.

The majority are still dirt poor by any Western standard.


Your arguement is to push western experiences and beliefs onto their
culture. Your expressions show little understanding of Chinese
culture. While they wish freedom, order in their lives is far more
imporatant.

Nothing proves that, not a thing. Chinese lived disorder lives (they
were essentially a hodgepodge of feudal states) before Western
influence penetrated their culture. The only order came from
servitude to a ruling class that made the European elite look like
egalitarians. IMO, you've got that typical wide-eyed Western view of
the Chinese that just does not match reality.

China is still an agrarian society with primative
agricultural methods, by western standards. Their expectations are not
as high as ours are. The communist government of China is not the
hardline type like Stalin. China is moving ever so slowly from Mao's
ideals. I would say that China's communism "fall" will be about 30yrs
behind that of Russia's. By about 2010 to 2020, there should be noone
left that directly served with Chairman Mao. China will then be like
Russia, elect their own Goochy Gorby. Gorbechev(SP?) was the first
Russian premier that had no ties to Stalin. It took nearly 35 yrs
after Stalin's death for Gorby to come to power. We are now 30 yrs
after Mao's death. SO maybe in five to fifteen yrs China will elect a
Chairman will lead China into a more democratic society.

I do forsee changes in China's internal politics in the near future.
As China emerges futher out of their isolationistic past, they will
have to deal with internal politics and economics that if not
addressed will rip the country apart.

james

james wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:41:58 -0400, RichA wrote:


Yes, lacking ANY indication at all that the average Chinese person
wants to live under oppression because of the side benefit of
increasing wealth, we should assume that's the case. In fact, lets
not help the Africans either, because for all we know, they like the
AIDS epidemic because it reduces the number of mouths to feed!

*******

Rich

Have you been to Mainland China or Taiwan?

While I have not, I have friends that have. You will be surprised that
products on the shelf in China is priced such that the masses can
afford them.

Your arguement is to push western experiences and beliefs onto their
culture. Your expressions show little understanding of Chinese
culture. While they wish freedom, order in their lives is far more
imporatant. China is still an agrarian society with primative
agricultural methods, by western standards. Their expectations are not
as high as ours are. The communist government of China is not the
hardline type like Stalin. China is moving ever so slowly from Mao's
ideals. I would say that China's communism "fall" will be about 30yrs
behind that of Russia's. By about 2010 to 2020, there should be noone
left that directly served with Chairman Mao. China will then be like
Russia, elect their own Goochy Gorby. Gorbechev(SP?) was the first
Russian premier that had no ties to Stalin. It took nearly 35 yrs
after Stalin's death for Gorby to come to power. We are now 30 yrs
after Mao's death. SO maybe in five to fifteen yrs China will elect a
Chairman will lead China into a more democratic society.

I do forsee changes in China's internal politics in the near future.
As China emerges futher out of their isolationistic past, they will
have to deal with internal politics and economics that if not
addressed will rip the country apart.

james

One small point about
"that products on the shelf in China is priced such
that the masses can afford them."
You should all know by now that price is "what the market will bear".
The same for labor cost. It is the same for communist and democracies.
The communist may have little money, thus the price is less.
Lets face it - We (the rich) are dumb as rocks. We are happy to spend $1.50
for 12 oz of water to drink, while we complain about the gas that cost
$2.10 a gallon....

Steve

RichA wrote:
Nothing proves that, not a thing. Chinese lived disorder lives (they
were essentially a hodgepodge of feudal states) before Western
influence penetrated their culture. The only order came from
servitude to a ruling class that made the European elite look like
egalitarians. IMO, you've got that typical wide-eyed Western view of
the Chinese that just does not match reality.

Yours is less wide-eyed, I will admit, but it matches reality none the
better for it. The history of China is *far* more complex than either
of you is portraying it. However, I think we've gone far afield from
the actual concern portrayed in the original post.

Brian Tung
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.txt