Superluminal Quasar Jets : The Beaming "Explanation" Appears Inadequate

wrote in message
ups.com...

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
In message . com,
writes


If the "transverse doppler effect" is as claimed, then the material
being emitted is giving us a false wave signature (eg fast moving H
would exhibit a wavelength other than 21cm). The composition of the
jet
would need to be reappraised.
(But don't bother- Transverse Doppler was just invented to prop SR)

I don't see the relevance of this to anything that has gone before in

this thread.
No-one's talking about spectral or composition information - the
argument is about geometry and proper motion. And much of it is from
optical observation.
But are there any spectra of the jet showing lines - optical or
radio?

I suppose I should apologise for taking a cheap shot at SR in this
thread- just couldn't resist :-)

[Note: must try harder]

OTH, if the thread is discussing material v c, surely the composition
of that material is relevent? And that is determined by spectra, which
I am
suggesting would be very flawed data, were transverse doppler effects
as posited.
So your question leads in an interesting direction.

In your other reply you said:


wrote in message
oups.com...

Joseph Lazio wrote:

O.k., suppose you make this measurement. Say you get 2
milliarcseconds. Suppose you also know the distance to the quasar, so
that you can convert the angular distance (in milliarcseconds) to a
linear distance (in parsecs).

Now what? You have one measurement. We don't know the velocity of
the material in the jet (other than it is probably close to c), and
you cannot necessarily use the motion of the knots, because they might
be shock waves within the jets and not reflecting the actual motion of
the material in the jet.

At a later time, see how much the angle has increased. Trig will
calculate the velocity of the "top" as it has moved per time ref its
origin.

That is the method used.

Jonathan asked "But are there any spectra of the jet showing
lines - optical or radio?".

If the speed is measured by trig and there are no spectra
available, what various people have asked is why you think
Transverse Doppler would be a factor.

George

"j" == jgreen writes:

j [...] surely the composition of that material is relevent? And that
j is determined by spectra, which I am suggesting would be very
j flawed data, were transverse doppler effects as posited.

Yes, the composition of the material is relevant. Unfortunately,
there are few means available to determine that. The spectra of the
jets are essentially a featureless continuum. There are no spectra
lines. Other than being reasonably confident that the emission is
synchrotron radiation, there's not a whole lot more that can be said.

--
Lt. Lazio, HTML police | e-mail:
No means no, stop rape. | http://patriot.net/%7Ejlazio/
sci.astro FAQ at http://sciastro.astronomy.net/sci.astro.html

George Dishman wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
In message . com,
writes


If the "transverse doppler effect" is as claimed, then the
material
being emitted is giving us a false wave signature (eg fast moving
H
would exhibit a wavelength other than 21cm). The composition of
the
jet
would need to be reappraised.
(But don't bother- Transverse Doppler was just invented to prop
SR)

I don't see the relevance of this to anything that has gone before
in

this thread.
No-one's talking about spectral or composition information - the
argument is about geometry and proper motion. And much of it is
from
optical observation.
But are there any spectra of the jet showing lines - optical or
radio?

I suppose I should apologise for taking a cheap shot at SR in this
thread- just couldn't resist :-)

[Note: must try harder]

OTH, if the thread is discussing material v c, surely the
composition
of that material is relevent? And that is determined by spectra,
which
I am
suggesting would be very flawed data, were transverse doppler
effects
as posited.
So your question leads in an interesting direction.

In your other reply you said:


wrote in message
oups.com...

Joseph Lazio wrote:

O.k., suppose you make this measurement. Say you get 2
milliarcseconds. Suppose you also know the distance to the
quasar, so
that you can convert the angular distance (in milliarcseconds) to
a
linear distance (in parsecs).

Now what? You have one measurement. We don't know the velocity
of
the material in the jet (other than it is probably close to c),
and
you cannot necessarily use the motion of the knots, because they
might
be shock waves within the jets and not reflecting the actual
motion of
the material in the jet.

At a later time, see how much the angle has increased. Trig will
calculate the velocity of the "top" as it has moved per time ref
its
origin.

That is the method used.

Jonathan asked "But are there any spectra of the jet showing
lines - optical or radio?".

If the speed is measured by trig and there are no spectra
available, what various people have asked is why you think
Transverse Doppler would be a factor.

George

The composition of an emitting source (say H) is assumed from its
emitted wavelength (as received by us). If that wavelength has been
altered by TD, then the composition of the source is assumed
incorrectly. I agree that this may not have anything to do with the
actual separation of the "top" from its origin- what I don't see taken
into consideration is say 25cm radiation being claimed to be H, because
the cloud is crossing our view (and therefore should have TD altered
wavelength).
SR supporters will be looking very hard for evidence that the angle is
NOT increasing as it seems- superlumenal material is anathema.
Optical effects / illusions may be the way for DHR's to try to
discredit
these superlumenal effects, but beware! They may be the same ones which
are used to SUPPORT SR, and return to savage their posteriors.

Jim G
c'=c+v

George Dishman wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
In message . com,
writes


If the "transverse doppler effect" is as claimed, then the
material
being emitted is giving us a false wave signature (eg fast moving
H
would exhibit a wavelength other than 21cm). The composition of
the
jet
would need to be reappraised.
(But don't bother- Transverse Doppler was just invented to prop
SR)

I don't see the relevance of this to anything that has gone before
in

this thread.
No-one's talking about spectral or composition information - the
argument is about geometry and proper motion. And much of it is
from
optical observation.
But are there any spectra of the jet showing lines - optical or
radio?

I suppose I should apologise for taking a cheap shot at SR in this
thread- just couldn't resist :-)

[Note: must try harder]

OTH, if the thread is discussing material v c, surely the
composition
of that material is relevent? And that is determined by spectra,
which
I am
suggesting would be very flawed data, were transverse doppler
effects
as posited.
So your question leads in an interesting direction.

In your other reply you said:


wrote in message
oups.com...

Joseph Lazio wrote:

O.k., suppose you make this measurement. Say you get 2
milliarcseconds. Suppose you also know the distance to the
quasar, so
that you can convert the angular distance (in milliarcseconds) to
a
linear distance (in parsecs).

Now what? You have one measurement. We don't know the velocity
of
the material in the jet (other than it is probably close to c),
and
you cannot necessarily use the motion of the knots, because they
might
be shock waves within the jets and not reflecting the actual
motion of
the material in the jet.

At a later time, see how much the angle has increased. Trig will
calculate the velocity of the "top" as it has moved per time ref
its
origin.

That is the method used.

Jonathan asked "But are there any spectra of the jet showing
lines - optical or radio?".

If the speed is measured by trig and there are no spectra
available, what various people have asked is why you think
Transverse Doppler would be a factor.

George

The composition of an emitting source (say H) is assumed from its
emitted wavelength (as received by us). If that wavelength has been
altered by TD, then the composition of the source is assumed
incorrectly. I agree that this may not have anything to do with the
actual separation of the "top" from its origin- what I don't see taken
into consideration is say 25cm radiation being claimed to be H, because
the cloud is crossing our view (and therefore should have TD altered
wavelength).
SR supporters will be looking very hard for evidence that the angle is
NOT increasing as it seems- superlumenal material is anathema.
Optical effects / illusions may be the way for DHR's to try to
discredit
these superlumenal effects, but beware! They may be the same ones which
are used to SUPPORT SR, and return to savage their posteriors.

Jim G
c'=c+v

Joseph Lazio wrote:
"j" == jgreen writes:

j [...] surely the composition of that material is relevent? And
that
j is determined by spectra, which I am suggesting would be very
j flawed data, were transverse doppler effects as posited.

Yes, the composition of the material is relevant. Unfortunately,
there are few means available to determine that. The spectra of the
jets are essentially a featureless continuum. There are no spectra
lines. Other than being reasonably confident that the emission is
synchrotron radiation, there's not a whole lot more that can be said.

Fair enough, that a fast-moving mixture of atoms / molecules is just
"brown", and doesn't show lines. Pity really- it would be nice to see
whether the H atoms could travel faster than the Fe, or viceversa.

Jim G
c'=c+v

wrote in message
oups.com...
snip
Jonathan asked "But are there any spectra of the jet showing
lines - optical or radio?".

If the speed is measured by trig and there are no spectra
available, what various people have asked is why you think
Transverse Doppler would be a factor.

The composition of an emitting source (say H) is assumed from its
emitted wavelength (as received by us).

You are assuming there exists a single emitted
wavelength. That is not the case for the radiation
produced by heated material, it glows at all
wavelengths. That is the case for the jets.

If that wavelength has been
altered by TD, then the composition of the source is assumed
incorrectly. I agree that this may not have anything to do with the
actual separation of the "top" from its origin-

There is no "top", just a continuous but
somewhat variable stream.

what I don't see taken
into consideration is say 25cm radiation being claimed to be H,

That is because there are no lines. Why don't you
just listen to what Jonathan and Joseph have been
telling you?

George

wrote in message
oups.com...

Joseph Lazio wrote:
"j" == jgreen writes:

j [...] surely the composition of that material is relevent? And
that
j is determined by spectra, which I am suggesting would be very
j flawed data, were transverse doppler effects as posited.

Yes, the composition of the material is relevant. Unfortunately,
there are few means available to determine that. The spectra of the
jets are essentially a featureless continuum. There are no spectra
lines. Other than being reasonably confident that the emission is
synchrotron radiation, there's not a whole lot more that can be said.

Fair enough, that a fast-moving mixture of atoms / molecules is just
"brown", and doesn't show lines. Pity really- it would be nice to see
whether the H atoms could travel faster than the Fe, or viceversa.

OK, you did listen. Sorry for my previous comment.

best regards
George

"Joseph Lazio" wrote in message
...
"j" == jgreen writes:

j [...] surely the composition of that material is relevent? And that
j is determined by spectra, which I am suggesting would be very
j flawed data, were transverse doppler effects as posited.

Yes, the composition of the material is relevant. Unfortunately,
there are few means available to determine that. The spectra of the
jets are essentially a featureless continuum. There are no spectra
lines. Other than being reasonably confident that the emission is
synchrotron radiation, there's not a whole lot more that can be said.

What a fascinating subject this is. Although as a hematologist I spent most
of my life looking at the universe through a microscope rather than
telescope, the unique morphological pattern of the plasma jet exploding out
of the nuclear center of galaxy M87 has to have enormously relevant
structural and functional significance. In hematology, as a microscopist,
when we encounter a single aberrant cell in the bone marrow that is
difficult to identify, we can usually identify the nature of the cell line
by examining the company it keeps. As the characteristic features of certain
cell populations gradually transition toward their progenitors, it becomes
possible to morphologically identify how an individual cell transforms into
its present morphological appearance, structurally speaking. I therefore
looked at cosmic plasma jets in a variety of celestial objects and was
surprised by what I saw. These jets from quasars and the nuclear center of
galaxies consistently appear to be an integral part of their morphological
structure and physical ontogeny, rather than an aberrant result of a
catastrophic event. Obviously, visually speaking, these plasma jets are
exploding out of the nuclear centers of quasars and a wide variety of
interrelated galaxy types that have identical giant plasma jets. By aligning
these structures according to specific criteria including the presence of
jets, I was able to recognize that the quasar and its jettison of particle
plasma appeared to be forming the active nuclear center of all these
galaxies, which appear to extend as an interrelated structural continuum all
the way from quasar to radio galaxy to elliptical galaxies, exactly like
galaxy M87. This alignment indicates to me that the material flooding into
surrounding space is potentially composed of hydrogen, because the ongoing
expansion of this radio emitting material results in the formation of a
radio galaxy, wherein star birth is visibly vigorously active.



By looking at the process on either side of the jet in galaxy M87 (i.e.
within the supermassive density of the quasar at galaxy center and within
the massive radio structure that results from this ongoing process of
particle formation that is visibly flooding into surrounding space), the
composition of the material can be investigated in theoretical terms. Citing
evidence from recent reports about the supermassive "black hole" and plasma
jet exploding out of galaxy M87, by using a Gravity Implosion---Energy
Explosion Model analogous to stellar evolution, I have demonstrated how the
supermassive gravitational density of the quasar at galaxy center is
potentially the actual physical site of Ongoing "Big-Bang" nucleosynthesis
of hydrogen that results in formation of the circumnuclear torus and
jettison of hydrogen (proton-electron plasma) into surrounding regional
space. See Evidence of Ongoing-Big-Bang in Center of Every Active Galaxy at
http://www.origin-of-universe.com/ch...chapter_10.htm

When the jets are modeled as newly formed hydrogen that transitions within
the cooler regions of surrounding space into ionic and atomic and molecular
hydrogen, the entire process of galaxy evolution unfolds from inside outward
as a result. See Illustration and concise summary of resulting Mainstream
Sequence of Galaxy Evolution at.
http://www.origin-of-universe.com/#Galaxy_Evolution



Respectfully,



Paul Hollister

http://www.Origin-of-Universe.com contains complete manuscript of

Origin and Evolution of the Universe, a Unified Scientific Theory

by Paul Hollister, M.D.

When we look at the black holes at the center of every galaxy
we see them emiting enormous amounts of energy and matter.

But how exactly is this happening if the motion of everything
is falling at tremendous velocity toward the black hole?
What is giving the jets their outward push?
And why would it be only up through the poles?
How does matter arive at the poles first?

Mitch -- Light Falls --

wrote:
When we look at the black holes at the center of every galaxy
we see them emiting enormous amounts of energy and matter.

But how exactly is this happening if the motion of everything
is falling at tremendous velocity toward the black hole?

Conservation of Angular Momentum
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/phys...rMomentum.html