Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks

PD wrote:

On Nov 18, 3:26 pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 11/18/11 12:34 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:

Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks - Technology &
Science - CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...nce-faster-tha...

"Subatomic particles were again clocked travelling faster than light by
European researchers after the experiment was revised to rule out a
certain type of error."

We often had students that would send a print job to the printer,
and when that didn't print, they would send it again... and again...
and again... and again...

I wonder how many times the neutrino experiment will be repeated
without changing anything.

Actually, they did change something. The pulses are now much narrower,
so that the chief complaint -- pulse-shape matching -- can be ruled
out as a systematic error.

Sam wormly crap is posted by multiple trolls manning the one
puppet.

Its a sock puppet for climate crap.

Some of the trolls don't know
a thing about physics so you can't expect them to have read
anything before posting.


You are up against internet's new breed of spewdo scientists.

Until their funding mechanism is taken down with traceable
invoices that trace the spew back to their funding sources,
democracy, decent internet discussions and
science will remain under attack from internets spewdo scientists.


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On 11/18/11 6:25 PM, PD wrote:
On Nov 18, 3:26 pm, Sam wrote:
On 11/18/11 12:34 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:

Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks - Technology&
Science - CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...nce-faster-tha...

"Subatomic particles were again clocked travelling faster than light by
European researchers after the experiment was revised to rule out a
certain type of error."

We often had students that would send a print job to the printer,
and when that didn't print, they would send it again... and again...
and again... and again...

I wonder how many times the neutrino experiment will be repeated
without changing anything.

Actually, they did change something. The pulses are now much narrower,
so that the chief complaint -- pulse-shape matching -- can be ruled
out as a systematic error.

Yes--Thanks, PD. I was a bit too facetious.
-Sam

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Nov 19, 4:08*am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 18/11/2011 4:21 PM, dlzc wrote:
On Nov 18, 11:34 am, Yousuf *wrote:
Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks -
Technology& *Science - CBC News
snip link now broken by Google.Groups

"Subatomic particles were again clocked travelling
faster than light by European researchers after the
experiment was revised to rule out a certain type of
error."

... But they never took care of the possible 65ns
timing error, for the fact the two sets of detectors are
many miles apart, and they did not discern between
gamma photons created in spallation processes, and
those form the original event.

Still so not news...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What difference
do gamma rays make here?

The race is between neutrinos that were created in the target event,
and propagated to the detector site... and gamma photons passing
through solid rock.

Are you saying that neutrinos are also emitted within
spallation events beside the gamma rays?

No. I am saying the gammas detected may not have been generated in
the same collision back at the source, but a daughter products of
gammas interacting with intervening rock.

Where is the spallation taking place?

Scattering in rock.

Anyways, my favored theory is still that this is an
underground geological anomaly caused by the
Aquila Earthquake. It's simple, and it's mundane
compared to all of the other theories out there.

And doesn't explain that the data was obtained over a two year period,
not just at the starting point. They are obtaining current GPS
locations for things, I believe.

David A. Smith

dlzc wrote:

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Nov 18, 11:34*am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks -
Technology & Science - CBC News
snip link now broken by Google.Groups

"Subatomic particles were again clocked travelling faster than
light by European researchers after the experiment was revised
to rule out a certain type of error."

... But they never took care of the possible 65ns timing error, for
the fact the two sets of detectors are many miles apart, and they did
not discern between gamma photons created in spallation processes, and
those form the original event.

Still so not news...

It's still news if they've now ruled out a pulse-swallowing
explanation for the previous results.

Let's think about this. Special relativity was a theory explaining
observations that, in their entirety, depended on the behavior
and interactions of electrons and photons. Not neutrinos. Even
prior to OPERA results, no theory consistently explained all
the behavior of neutrinos that has been observed over the decades.
So this is indeed not news, in the sense that we still can't
explain the behavior of neutrinos: this is just one more aspect
of that unexplained behavior.

Personally my money is on neutrino-antineutrino oscillations
ultimately figuring into an explanation of the current results.



Steve

On 19/11/2011 7:59 PM, dlzc wrote:
Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Nov 19, 4:08 am, Yousuf wrote:
On 18/11/2011 4:21 PM, dlzc wrote:
... But they never took care of the possible 65ns
timing error, for the fact the two sets of detectors are
many miles apart, and they did not discern between
gamma photons created in spallation processes, and
those form the original event.

Still so not news...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What difference
do gamma rays make here?

The race is between neutrinos that were created in the target event,
and propagated to the detector site... and gamma photons passing
through solid rock.

Ah! You have a misconception here. There is no direct head-to-head race
here, it's all just timed runs. Gamma rays cannot make it more than a
few feet through the Earth before they are stopped; gamma rays cannot
even make it through Earth's atmosphere. So no actual light beam is
racing against the neutrino beam. Instead, they are just measuring the
neutrino beam speed against a hypothetical light beam -- which is
obviously travelling at the speed of light.

That's why they are paying so much attention to GPS accuracy and atomic
clock synchronization. In the absence of actual light beams that can go
through the Earth, they are measuring it against light's calculated
arrival times.

Are you saying that neutrinos are also emitted within
spallation events beside the gamma rays?

No. I am saying the gammas detected may not have been generated in
the same collision back at the source, but a daughter products of
gammas interacting with intervening rock.

Where is the spallation taking place?

Scattering in rock.

Well, obviously now you know that we're not talking about an actual
light beam, but a hypothetical one, so this is now irrelevant.

I suspect that if they could drill through all of this rock and open up
a dead straight hole through which actual light can travel, alongside
the neutrino beam, they will find that they have identical arrival
times. There is an inaccuracy in their measurement of either time or
distance that they haven't figured out yet. My bet is on distance.

Anyways, my favored theory is still that this is an
underground geological anomaly caused by the
Aquila Earthquake. It's simple, and it's mundane
compared to all of the other theories out there.

And doesn't explain that the data was obtained over a two year period,
not just at the starting point. They are obtaining current GPS
locations for things, I believe.

The GPS signal, like other forms of light, cannot penetrate all of the
way towards the underground mineshaft cavern where the neutrino detector
is actually located. So the GPS reading is done at the surface near the
mouth of the cavern entrance, and then the underground neutrino detector
position is estimated down nearly 1 mile underground.

I'm saying that there is plenty of room for error at this stage because
the GPS measurement is not taken at the actual neutrino detector but a
mile away, at the entrance to the neutrino detector. Especially in an
earthquake zone like this region, a very slight positional change at the
surface could translate into a much more substantial positional change 1
mile down, since we can't actually measure with GPS down there. I think
one way to resolve this issue might be to take a very accurate submarine
inertial navigation system and measure from the cavern entrance to the
neutrino detector chamber.

Yousuf Khan

On 18/11/2011 18:34, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks - Technology &
Science - CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...neutrinos.html


"Subatomic particles were again clocked travelling faster than light by
European researchers after the experiment was revised to rule out a
certain type of error."

I think this is quite fun and look forward to seeing another independent
lab confirm it - for now it is a curiosity.

I don't think it breaks relativity by very much though. I think it just
means that the ultimate speed limit in the universe is very slightly
faster for neutrinos because they barely notice ordinary matter and in
effect see purer true vacuum than does electromagnetic radiation which
is sensitive to quantum fluctuations and virtual photons.

Put another way the refractive index of what we normally think of as
free space vacuum as seen by electromagnetic radiation is very slightly
above unity. Neutrinos see a better purer vacuum and so can go faster.

It does beg the question of why they are not shedding the equivalent of
Cherenkov radiation as electron positron pairs.

The other possible interpretation is that they can exploit a short cut
inside some of the tightly folded other dimensions of supersymmetry. It
would be quite a coup if this could be demonstrated convincingly.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In sci.physics Yousuf Khan wrote:

The GPS signal, like other forms of light, cannot penetrate all of the
way towards the underground mineshaft cavern where the neutrino detector
is actually located. So the GPS reading is done at the surface near the
mouth of the cavern entrance, and then the underground neutrino detector
position is estimated down nearly 1 mile underground.

Read the papers; the position of the detector relative to the antenna
isn't estimated, it is measured with traditional measuring techniques.

And the detector isn't "down nearly 1 mile underground" relative to the
entrance no more than the first floor of a skyscraper is 20 floors underground,
it is underground relative to the mountain that sits on top of it.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Nov 20, 7:07*am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 19/11/2011 7:59 PM, dlzc wrote:
On Nov 19, 4:08 am, Yousuf *wrote:
On 18/11/2011 4:21 PM, dlzc wrote:
... But they never took care of the possible 65ns
timing error, for the fact the two sets of detectors are
many miles apart, and they did not discern between
gamma photons created in spallation processes, and
those form the original event.

Still so not news...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What difference
do gamma rays make here?

The race is between neutrinos that were created in the
target event, and propagated to the detector site... and
gamma photons passing through solid rock.

Ah! You have a misconception here. There is no direct
head-to-head race here, it's all just timed runs. Gamma
rays cannot make it more than a few feet through the Earth
before they are stopped; gamma rays cannot even make it
through Earth's atmosphere. So no actual light beam is
racing against the neutrino beam.

Early bad press I guess. Sorry.

Instead, they are just measuring the neutrino beam speed
against a hypothetical light beam -- which is obviously
travelling at the speed of light.

That's why they are paying so much attention to GPS
accuracy and atomic clock synchronization. In the absence
of actual light beams that can go through the Earth, they
are measuring it against light's calculated arrival times.

I wonder what they are using to calibrate their neutrino detector?
They don't really detect neutrinos, they detect Cerenkov radiation
from neutrino interactions that liberate charged particles. Seems
like others, with their calibrations, see no issues with arrival
times.

Are you saying that neutrinos are also emitted within
spallation events beside the gamma rays?

No. *I am saying the gammas detected may not have
been generated in the same collision back at the source,
but a daughter products of gammas interacting with
intervening rock.

Where is the spallation taking place?

Scattering in rock.

Well, obviously now you know that we're not talking about
an actual light beam, but a hypothetical one, so this is
now irrelevant.

I suspect that if they could drill through all of this rock and
open up a dead straight hole through which actual light can
travel, alongside the neutrino beam, they will find that they
have identical arrival times. There is an inaccuracy in their
measurement of either time or distance that they haven't
figured out yet. My bet is on distance.

Mine is on calibration of their detectors.

Anyways, my favored theory is still that this is an
underground geological anomaly caused by the
Aquila Earthquake. It's simple, and it's mundane
compared to all of the other theories out there.

And doesn't explain that the data was obtained over a
two year period, not just at the starting point. *They are
obtaining current GPS locations for things, I believe.

The GPS signal, like other forms of light, cannot penetrate
all of the way towards the underground mineshaft cavern
where the neutrino detector is actually located.

They claim it does. They claim they have current data on that.

So the GPS reading is done at the surface near the mouth
of the cavern entrance, and then the underground neutrino
detector position is estimated down nearly 1 mile
underground.

I'm saying that there is plenty of room for error at this stage
because the GPS measurement is not taken at the actual
neutrino detector but a mile away, at the entrance to the
neutrino detector. Especially in an earthquake zone like
this region, a very slight positional change at the surface
could translate into a much more substantial positional
change 1 mile down, since we can't actually measure with
GPS down there. I think one way to resolve this issue
might be to take a very accurate submarine inertial
navigation system and measure from the cavern entrance
to the neutrino detector chamber.

Maybe. But I figure this foofaraw will be good for helping Italy
balance its budget.

David A. Smith

Yousuf Khan wrote:

The GPS signal, like other forms of light, cannot penetrate all of the
way towards the underground mineshaft cavern where the neutrino detector
is actually located. So the GPS reading is done at the surface near the
mouth of the cavern entrance, and then the underground neutrino detector
position is estimated down nearly 1 mile underground.

I'm saying that there is plenty of room for error at this stage because
the GPS measurement is not taken at the actual neutrino detector but a
mile away, at the entrance to the neutrino detector.

Since one can accurately survey that last mile this is not a possible
source of error unless they made a flat-ass surveying mistake, something
I consider highely unlikely. Especially since they can repeat and
double-check that particular measurement as much as they like.

Steve

On 11/20/11 8:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 18/11/2011 18:34, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Faster-than-light particles repeat speed despite tweaks - Technology &
Science - CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...neutrinos.html



"Subatomic particles were again clocked travelling faster than light by
European researchers after the experiment was revised to rule out a
certain type of error."

I think this is quite fun and look forward to seeing another independent
lab confirm it - for now it is a curiosity.

I don't think it breaks relativity by very much though. I think it just
means that the ultimate speed limit in the universe is very slightly
faster for neutrinos because they barely notice ordinary matter and in
effect see purer true vacuum than does electromagnetic radiation which
is sensitive to quantum fluctuations and virtual photons.

Put another way the refractive index of what we normally think of as
free space vacuum as seen by electromagnetic radiation is very slightly
above unity. Neutrinos see a better purer vacuum and so can go faster.

The concept of refractive index may be key
or the more succinct concept of permittivity and permeability

permittivity * v1^2 = c^2
permittivity * permeablity * v2^2 = c^2
and
v2 = de broglie velocity ~1/x at vacuum uncertainty.

then there exists a phase velocity
v3 = (c/v2)*c

v1 and v2 are subliminal and v3 superluminal at our scale
but within nuclear dimensions
bounded by an undefined de Broglie velocity 'c'
and related nuclear radius x
v1 and v2 are superliminal and v3 subluminal.

The nuclear generated neutrino velocity
in the realm of nuclear superluminal v1 and v2 is naturally =c.
'c' remains a universal constant.
A new look at Asymptotic freedom.

I would not look at the statistical mean neutrino velocity
but the individual event
as it relates to a nuclear event.

Richard D. Saam
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9905007