Mars Exploration Rovers Update - February 13, 2004

"Carla Schneider" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

"Carla Schneider" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:

[...]
The plan for sol 20, which will end at 8:20 p.m. Friday, PST, is to
do a "touch and go," meaning Opportunity will touch the soil with
its
instrument arm around the outpost area Charlie, then stow the arm
and
drive. It will head for an area of soil that the rover's miniature
thermal emission spectrometer indicates is rich in hematite. Over
the
following few sols, engineers intend to use one of Opportunity's
wheels
to spin into the soil and "trench" a shallow hole so scientists can
check
what's below the surface early next week. Knowing more about the
hematite
distribution on Mars may help scientists characterize the past
environment
and determine whether that environment provided favorable conditions
for
life.

Any guesses what they will find in the trench ?
I bet they will not find a lot of hematite below the surface,
because it is concentrated in the spheres and the spheres are only
lying on the top.

Gee Carla, where did you get that information? Even the JPL scientists
have
said that they have had trouble taking readings from the spherules
ecause of
their small size. They haven't said what they are composed of. In
addition, there is no reason to assume that the spheres are only sitting
on
top of the soil.

Did you see the colored map of hematit concentration ?
No hematite where the airbacks compressed the soil, that means
the spheres have been pressed below the dust and the spheres are
the carrier of hematite mineral.

Yes the spheres were pressed below the soil surface. That does not
necessarily mean that the hematite originated from the spheres. Why? Also
note that the uppermost topsoil itself was disturbed. In addition, and
spectral analysis of the rock outcrop from which the spheres apparently
orginated was very low in hematite.

Let's wait until they conduct the trenching and report on
their analytical results before we all make such pronouncements, shall
we?

It was a guess, I wanted to file here.
So if I am right I will be able to say I knew it in advance.

I can understand that sentiment. However, I'd be careful about making
statements prematurely. The often times have a habit of coming back to
haunt you.


There are no sand dunes like at gusev crater, because the spheres
prevent them from forming - is this possible ?

Actually if you look at the picture at the following link.
???

Oops, sorry. Here is the link.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...hem_strip1.jpg

Download the image, then open it in the image processing software of your
choice (I use Adobe Photoshop, and Corel PhotoPaint). Zoom in on the far
right-hand side of the image,and you will see small dunes. You will also
note that the soil appears to be thicker in this area. Also note that not
only is the soil disturbed by the airbags low in hematite, but a large area
of undisturbed soil from the center to the right of center in the image also
is low in hematite. So I would have to say that in my opinion the areas
where the hematite is highest in concentration must have some other unique
feature that is allowing the hematite to be concentrated there.

you will see
small dunes in the foreground. Since the rover has yet ot even leave
the
crater, nad since the dunes you refer to at Gustev crater are ver small,
I
see no reason to expect that these dunes will not be found at the
opportunity site as well.

Lets see. usually a crater should be a place to expect such dunes if there
are any. There are no dunes visible that bury the spheres.

As appears to be the case with this crater, it seems that the wind blows the
strongest in the area where the outcrop is exposed - since it has been
denuded of its soil, I would think this would be likely. Where the wind
speed drops, one would expect it to drop its load of sediment. One would
expect to find dunes only near the top of the crater away from the outcrop.
Low and behold, there are dunes in the right-hand side of the image shown in
the link, above, at the top of the crater. I would expect that soil
comprising these dunes may have originated from the exposed area of outcrop.
Whether these dunes have buried any spheres or not is unknown since they
have not taken the rover over to that area to investigate.


Could there be an other reason as density that prevents these spheres
from
beeing
burrowed below the dust, maybe some electrostatic effect ?
If the spheres were very light the wind would blow them to dunes, if
they
were heavy they would be buried below the dust, and there is a lot of
dust
falling down if you wait long enough...


--
http://www.geocities.com/carla_sch/index.html

--
http://www.geocities.com/carla_sch/index.html

Interesting web site. Of course, it has nothing to do with this newsgroup,
or the subject of this thread.

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Doug..." wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

snip

Actually, if there is a little soil movement activity, or if the
spheres
are moderately dense, the movement of sand could be enough to keep
them on
top. Try placing various sized objects in a container and shaking it-
the
smallest objects will sift to the bottom and the larger ones will rise
to
the top. These spheres could be going through a similar process,
keeping
them on the upper layer of regolith.
I am of the idea that the spheres are from one of three possible
origins:
a) an impact in mud and the thin air and low gravity allow them to
solidify and fall back to the ground. The spheres might have been
heated in
this sort of event, hardening them.
b) accretion from some geological process, perhaps through the
presence
of water.
c) biological activity.

If a) is true, then you would expect that these spheres might be
very
old, when it was more likely that water was extant on the surface.
But,
permafrost theories also say that there might be occasional torrents
when
impacts or other events release the water bound up in permafrost.


If they're ancient I wouldn't expect the spheres to show a diversity
of condition, some badly broken, some very pristine. The Spirit
site looks ancient, this just doesn't to me.

Am I missing something here? What pictures are you using to come to that
conclusion? If you look at this very close-up image, you will see spheres
in a range of conditions, from almostr pristine to pitted and broken:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M1M1.HTML



If b) is true, you might expect a broader range of sizes, although
some
type of sorting process might also be at work. However, the look at
the
layering of the rocks and the fact that spheres are embedded
throughout
seems to indicate that they were present before the rock layer were
formed.
If true, and if the rock is sedimentary (as it appears to be) then it
leads
you to think that the spheres are resistant to the action of water and
from
an earlier period.
Of course, some suggest that the spheres might have formed inside
the
rock, but my gut feeling (not very scientific!) is that this should
lead to
various concentrations of these spheres through the rock, not the
sparse
concentration we see. In other words, some clusters of the spheres
should
occur if they were formed in the rock.


Isn't soil on earth built by repetitive biological cycles?

Most soils on the earth are formed from chemical and mechanical weathering:

http://enterprise.cc.uakron.edu/geol...weath.htm#summ

Wouldn't
we expect to see fossilized examples of the biology that built the
soil in the bedrock, sedimentary bedrock?

Why?



If c) is true, then we have found what we are after. I notice
that many
of the spheres have odd characteristics, such as "tapered" ends, or
small
depressions. Could these be traces of some structure that an original
organism had?


When I look at this pic I can't help thinking we're seeing an
entire life cycle. Smudges of formation, mature forms and
broken forms.


http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2953M2M1.HTML


Hahahahahahaha!!! Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. What you are looking
at are spheres in various stages of mechanical decomposition. They are
inorganic mineraloids, dude.


Another possibility is that some outcrop of mineral had crumbled
and
rolled downstream in the past, wearing away and producing smooth
"pebbles".
Note that this can also produce a sorting mechanism, as the movement
of
water and the mass and size of the stones could select out the ones in
a
narrow range of cross sections and masses. If true, we could expect
to find
other areas with lots of spheres of different diameter- larger or
smaller
overall.
Note that I do include the effects of water in most of my ideas.
Well,
enough rambling.



I really wish the rover would take a spin outside the crater to get
some good images of the surrounding field.

Have some patience. That is on the rover's agenda. They also plan to
travel to a much large crater that is much closer to Opportunity than the
crater that Spirit is trying to reach. I suspect Opportunity may actually
reach that crater before Spirit reaches its crater.

I live along the Florida everglades, it's a 40 mile wide river of grass
following the flow of mostly underground water. I can't help but think
the soil, spheres and smooth flowing terrain around Opportunity is a
result
of underground water or ice.

Well, there is certainly no evidence one way or another for that idea. If
you look at an image of the region, you will note that it is a large crater
that has been nearly completely filled with soil/sediment/regolith:

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/dataViz.../HematiteWest/

Also note that there are younger craters that have impacted this filled
region, which has in turn filled the older, much larger crater. This fact,
aside from the fact of the presence of hematite, and the flatness of the
terraine, is one of the reasons why this site was chosen for exploration.

" George" skrev i en meddelelse
. ..

snip

Hahahahahahaha!!! Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. What you are looking
at are spheres in various stages of mechanical decomposition. They are
inorganic mineraloids, dude.

Do you have to, George?

snip

I can't help but think
the soil, spheres and smooth flowing terrain around Opportunity is a
result
of underground water or ice.

Well, there is certainly no evidence one way or another for that idea.

I have seen pictures of massive landslides that grades into what look like a
fluidized flow. To consider water and ice involved does not pose a problem
to me.

Carsten

" George" wrote
Yes the spheres were pressed below the soil surface. That does not
necessarily mean that the hematite originated from the spheres. Why? Also
note that the uppermost topsoil itself was disturbed. In addition, and
spectral analysis of the rock outcrop from which the spheres apparently
orginated was very low in hematite.

The relative cross-section of the spherules in the matrix facing the camera
is about 2%. They are much more concentrated on the ground, particularly in
oblique views.

The spherules tend to come out bluish when visible RGB images are combined,
leading to the moniker "blueberries.: It's interesting to compare such a
composite to the hematite map produced by the TES.

http://www.copperas.com/astro/spheres_hem.jpg

The more red areas in the right image (hematite) tend to correspond to the
more blue areas in the left image (spherules). Conclusion: spherules =
hematite.

Let's wait until they conduct the trenching and report on
their analytical results before we all make such pronouncements, shall
we?

Now what fun would that be?

Joe

" George" wrote in message
. ..

If they're ancient I wouldn't expect the spheres to show a diversity
of condition, some badly broken, some very pristine. The Spirit
site looks ancient, this just doesn't to me.

Am I missing something here? What pictures are you using to come to that
conclusion? If you look at this very close-up image, you will see spheres
in a range of conditions, from almostr pristine to pitted and broken:



Yes, reading comprehension. I'll speak more slowly this time.

If...they...are...ancient...I ...would...not...expect...some..to
be...pristine.






http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M1M1.HTML



If b) is true, you might expect a broader range of sizes, although
some
type of sorting process might also be at work. However, the look at
the
layering of the rocks and the fact that spheres are embedded
throughout
seems to indicate that they were present before the rock layer were
formed.
If true, and if the rock is sedimentary (as it appears to be) then it
leads
you to think that the spheres are resistant to the action of water and
from
an earlier period.
Of course, some suggest that the spheres might have formed inside
the
rock, but my gut feeling (not very scientific!) is that this should
lead to
various concentrations of these spheres through the rock, not the
sparse
concentration we see. In other words, some clusters of the spheres
should
occur if they were formed in the rock.


Isn't soil on earth built by repetitive biological cycles?

Most soils on the earth are formed from chemical and mechanical weathering:

http://enterprise.cc.uakron.edu/geol...weath.htm#summ

Wouldn't
we expect to see fossilized examples of the biology that built the
soil in the bedrock, sedimentary bedrock?

Why?



If c) is true, then we have found what we are after. I notice
that many
of the spheres have odd characteristics, such as "tapered" ends, or
small
depressions. Could these be traces of some structure that an original
organism had?


When I look at this pic I can't help thinking we're seeing an
entire life cycle. Smudges of formation, mature forms and
broken forms.


http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2953M2M1.HTML


Hahahahahahaha!!! Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. What you are looking
at are spheres in various stages of mechanical decomposition. They are
inorganic mineraloids, dude.


Another possibility is that some outcrop of mineral had crumbled
and
rolled downstream in the past, wearing away and producing smooth
"pebbles".
Note that this can also produce a sorting mechanism, as the movement
of
water and the mass and size of the stones could select out the ones in
a
narrow range of cross sections and masses. If true, we could expect
to find
other areas with lots of spheres of different diameter- larger or
smaller
overall.
Note that I do include the effects of water in most of my ideas.
Well,
enough rambling.



I really wish the rover would take a spin outside the crater to get
some good images of the surrounding field.

Have some patience. That is on the rover's agenda. They also plan to
travel to a much large crater that is much closer to Opportunity than the
crater that Spirit is trying to reach. I suspect Opportunity may actually
reach that crater before Spirit reaches its crater.

I live along the Florida everglades, it's a 40 mile wide river of grass
following the flow of mostly underground water. I can't help but think
the soil, spheres and smooth flowing terrain around Opportunity is a
result
of underground water or ice.

Well, there is certainly no evidence one way or another for that idea. If
you look at an image of the region, you will note that it is a large crater
that has been nearly completely filled with soil/sediment/regolith:

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/dataViz.../HematiteWest/

Also note that there are younger craters that have impacted this filled
region, which has in turn filled the older, much larger crater. This fact,
aside from the fact of the presence of hematite, and the flatness of the
terraine, is one of the reasons why this site was chosen for exploration.

"Carsten Troelsgaard" wrote in message
k...

" George" skrev i en meddelelse
. ..

snip

Hahahahahahaha!!! Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. What you are
looking
at are spheres in various stages of mechanical decomposition. They are
inorganic mineraloids, dude.

Do you have to, George?


Yes, I do. :-)

snip

I can't help but think
the soil, spheres and smooth flowing terrain around Opportunity is a
result
of underground water or ice.

Well, there is certainly no evidence one way or another for that idea.

I have seen pictures of massive landslides that grades into what look like
a
fluidized flow. To consider water and ice involved does not pose a problem
to me.

Carsten


But we see the same phenomenon in landslides in desert regions on the earth.
There is evidence that some large landslides will behave as a fluid due to
the creation of a layer of compressed air between the landslide material and
the ground upon which it is sliding. Such a layer acts like a lubricant
that reduces friction, and will allow the slide to behave as a fluid. In the
case of Mars, the air would consist of the CO2 atmosphere. Now, I am not
saying that water doesn't exist on Mars. Obviously it does, at least at the
poles. And of course, we have all seen some evidence that there may be
ground water, and/or frozen water in the subsurface. What I am saying is
that there are other explanations for the fluid appearance of these
landslides on Mars.

"Joe Knapp" wrote in message
.com...

" George" wrote
Yes the spheres were pressed below the soil surface. That does not
necessarily mean that the hematite originated from the spheres. Why?
Also
note that the uppermost topsoil itself was disturbed. In addition, and
spectral analysis of the rock outcrop from which the spheres apparently
orginated was very low in hematite.

The relative cross-section of the spherules in the matrix facing the
camera
is about 2%. They are much more concentrated on the ground, particularly
in
oblique views.

The spherules tend to come out bluish when visible RGB images are
combined,
leading to the moniker "blueberries.: It's interesting to compare such a
composite to the hematite map produced by the TES.

http://www.copperas.com/astro/spheres_hem.jpg

It has been my understanding from reading the interviews of the project
scientists that they were referred to as blueberries because of their shape
and size, not because of their color. In addition, there is no way that you
can look at the picture you posted above and say that the blue color is due
to the spherules simply because you cannot even see then at that resolution.
On the other hand, you can look at this image and get a clearer view of the
color of the spherules.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rove...atural-med.jpg


The more red areas in the right image (hematite) tend to correspond to the
more blue areas in the left image (spherules). Conclusion: spherules =
hematite.

Here is a link to the TES data collected by the rover:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rove..._strip-med.jpg

The data is superimposed onto the panorama of the outcrop and edge of the
crater. If you will note that in the center of the image is the area of the
outcrop first examined by the rover. That area had a lot of spherules on
the ground around the outcrop (the outcrop referred to as "stone mountain"),
within the outcrop itself, and below and above it. Note that this area is
hematite-poor. And the outcrop itself was hematite-poor. For verification,
please note this image of the area I'm referring to:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rove...ontext-med.jpg

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...treach1_br.jpg

You should also note that there are very few images sent back by opportunity
of the soil in which the spherules were not present, yet there are large
areas that appear to be hematite-poor. As I've said before, I think is it
too early to say that the spherules are composed of hematite. Looking at
data brought back from Apollo 14, similar granular spherules were found at
that site that turned out to be composed largely of plagioclase. I think I
will wait for more data before reaching a firm conclusion regarding the
spherules.

Let's wait until they conduct the trenching and report on
their analytical results before we all make such pronouncements,
shall
we?

Now what fun would that be?

Joe


Well, we can all speculate all we want to, but my experience with
speculation is this: Don't assume, that way you won't make a fool out of
you and me! :-))

" George" wrote
It has been my understanding from reading the interviews of the project
scientists that they were referred to as blueberries because of their
shape
and size, not because of their color.

Mark Lemmon: "We've looked at the floor of the crater itself and it's
exciting. In particular, this area is covered by finescale sandgrains and
these irregular grains coming down from the outcrop potentially and the most
spectacular are these rounded spherules being called blueberries because
they're relatively bluer than their surroundings." (Thursday, Feb. 12)

If you miss them, a lot of the press conferences are archived on C-SPAN;
unfortunately they don't have that one though.

In addition, there is no way that you
can look at the picture you posted above and say that the blue color is
due
to the spherules simply because you cannot even see then at that
resolution.

But you can see the blue color at that resolution, which the blueberries are
in such an RGB composite (with overemphasized blue).


On the other hand, you can look at this image and get a clearer view of
the
color of the spherules.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rove...atural-med.jpg

Officially they are calling the color of the spherules "gray." Or at least
grayer than the matrix. Gray hematite anyone?

Here is a link to the TES data collected by the rover:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rove..._strip-med.jpg

The data is superimposed onto the panorama of the outcrop and edge of the
crater. If you will note that in the center of the image is the area of
the
outcrop first examined by the rover. That area had a lot of spherules on
the ground around the outcrop (the outcrop referred to as "stone
mountain"),
within the outcrop itself, and below and above it. Note that this area is
hematite-poor. And the outcrop itself was hematite-poor. For
verification,
please note this image of the area I'm referring to:


http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rove...ontext-med.jpg


http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...treach1_br.jpg

However, speaking of resolution, this is the area of the "hematite strip"
you are basing your conslusion on:
http://www.copperas.com/astro/hemstrip.jpg

The approximate area of your Stone Mountain closeup is indicated.

You should also note that there are very few images sent back by
opportunity
of the soil in which the spherules were not present, yet there are large
areas that appear to be hematite-poor.

Not really, outside the airbag bouncemarks:
http://www.copperas.com/astro/hematite.jpg

As I've said before, I think is it
too early to say that the spherules are composed of hematite. Looking at
data brought back from Apollo 14, similar granular spherules were found at
that site that turned out to be composed largely of plagioclase. I think
I
will wait for more data before reaching a firm conclusion regarding the
spherules.

Similar? They were over ten times smaller than these and were made of dark
glass!

Well, we can all speculate all we want to, but my experience with
speculation is this: Don't assume, that way you won't make a fool out of
you and me! :-))

But is speculation, particularly based on current data, equivalent to
assumption?

Joe

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

" George" wrote in message
. ..

If they're ancient I wouldn't expect the spheres to show a diversity
of condition, some badly broken, some very pristine. The Spirit
site looks ancient, this just doesn't to me.

Am I missing something here? What pictures are you using to come to
that
conclusion? If you look at this very close-up image, you will see
spheres
in a range of conditions, from almostr pristine to pitted and broken:



Yes, reading comprehension. I'll speak more slowly this time.

If...they...are...ancient...I ...would...not...expect...some..to
be...pristine.


Why? Very little aside from wind is occuring that can alter anything on
the surface. It certainly doesn't rain. And any frost action is extremely
limited in scope and intensity. The surface of most of the planet has been
left unaltered, except for wind effects and the occasional meteor impact,
for perhaps billions of years. The landscapes you are seeing at both sites
are very, very old.

George wrote:
But we see the same phenomenon in landslides in desert regions on the earth.
There is evidence that some large landslides will behave as a fluid due to
the creation of a layer of compressed air between the landslide material and
the ground upon which it is sliding. Such a layer acts like a lubricant
that reduces friction, and will allow the slide to behave as a fluid. In the
case of Mars, the air would consist of the CO2 atmosphere. Now, I am not
saying that water doesn't exist on Mars. Obviously it does, at least at the
poles. And of course, we have all seen some evidence that there may be
ground water, and/or frozen water in the subsurface. What I am saying is
that there are other explanations for the fluid appearance of these
landslides on Mars.

I'm not arguing with you, I'd just like to see what you thought of this:
http://barsoom.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/11/13/

It seems like this evidence has been overlooked, but I fid it rather
comepelling. Comments?

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools Software for the Observer:
http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

Skyhound Observing Pages:
http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html

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