Global Warming is about giving your government more regulatory powerand your eventual enslavment.

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:47:04 GMT, lid
(John Savard) wrote:

One human life is (intrinsically) more valuable than ANY amount of money
or material things. This category, of course, includes pets, livestock,
and wild animals.

That is an opinion based on personal values. It cannot have any basis in
fact, and I'm sure a fair percentage of the population of the world
would disagree. I don't even agree that a human life has intrinsic
value; rather, it is valued by its internal world view and by the value
placed on it by others. I believe that some lives have negative value:
they harm me, or they harm many people.

In fact, the notion that animals are "things" is also a statement of
values, not fact. I don't share it. I would not offer the life of my dog
to save the life of a stranger. I place more personal value on my dog
than I do on most people. Different people have different values. You
certainly don't need to respect those values, but you do need to respect
the right to hold different values.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Oct 18, 10:32*am, Chris L Peterson

You should study up on law a little, too. You are committing libel here,
by accusing me of saying something that I did not say. Your action is
subject to legal action if I were so inclined; at the least, its highly
uncivil. Or maybe you simply lack the education to understand the role
of quotes in English. What's it going to be... uncivil and libelous, or
uneducated and stupid? Decisions, decisions.

What I said was that the collapse of civilization [from climate change]
is a very real possibility. That's a very different statement than what
you have attributed to me. Civilizations _have_ collapsed due to climate
shift: the Mayans (possibly by their own actions), the Anasazi, ancient
Greenlanders, and others. Modern societies in Africa have arguably
devolved to barbarism because of environmental strains. A
There is no doubt- no doubt at all- that the collapse of civilization is
a possibility that comes with global climate change. Nobody can put an
accurate number to the likelihood that this will happen; right now it's
probably a small number. But the ramifications are so negative that only
a fool would ignore the possibility.


Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com

LOL. I am a lawyer dipstick. What you know of the law could be put in
a thimble.

Talk to a lawyer--if you know one--he will laugh in your face.

On Oct 18, 10:48*am, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:46:26 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
You can't be unaware of the FACT that the Southern ice cap has been
GROWING in recent years. Are you simply dishonest?

More absolutes.

Measuring the volume of ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica is
extremely difficult. Most data is satellite derived, from altimetry and
ground penetrating radar.

The bulk of evidence suggests that the Antarctic is losing more ice than
it is gaining. Measuring this is made especially difficult because the
ice is growing in parts of the continent, and being lost in others. The
effects on sea level are even harder to work out, because the floating
ice shelves (which are indisputably being lost at a high rate) are fresh
water, which results in some sea level rise. This is why arctic ice
melting also produces some sea level rise.

The point is, this is all very complicated (and well worth what we are
investing in its study). And the data collected so far isn't very good
news for coastal communities over the next century or two.

And the notion that any sea level rise will occur virtually overnight
producing coastal flooding" is laughable and pathetic--you can't be
that dumb, can you?

Who said anything about "overnight"? The ocean has risen over the last
century, and we're paying a price for it now. An inch or two is all it
takes to make the difference between minor damage and near total
destruction from a storm surge. The ocean doesn't have to physically
rise over your house for it to have a major impact on you if you're
living on a coastline.

The most conservative models predict a sea level rise over the next
century of the better part of a meter. And a wise planner doesn't bet on
the most conservative estimate. It is near certainty that many coastal
areas are facing serious problems from ocean level increases in the near
future.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com

You really think we can predict the weather for the next 200 years??
Pathetic.

The computer weather models are no better than cosmology computer
models--subject to dramatic changes to fit evolving data. Or perhaps
you think we now *know" all there is to know about cosmology??

Remember the dire predictions of the "coming ice age"; "The Population
Bomb", etc etc??--Malthus would have been proud of you.

Exactly how much do you claim ocean levels have risen in the last 10
years? 20 years? You pick the time frame??

Did you know Greenland was farmed in historical times? Without a
"collapse of civilization?

What in the world do you do for a living? I would like to put your
nutty ideas in context.

On Oct 18, 12:51*pm, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:43:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:

Sure, the U.S. would be able to feed itself by importing food from
Canada...

That's expensive. In the end, the easiest solution might just be to
invade Canada. Who would stop us? Just another minor adjustment in
borders. History is full of them.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com

Or we could simply stop muti-billion $$ farm subsidies and goofy
political experiments like tariff protected corn ethanol.

And when Canada warms up and dramatically increases its arable land as
you predict , they will sell food, cheap.

On Oct 18, 1:14*pm, Chris L Peterson wrote:


I would not offer the life of my dog
to save the life of a stranger. I place more personal value on my dog
than I do on most people.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com

Suspicions confirmed--I am debating with a homophobic nut case--waste
of time--bye now.

Have fun with your dog.

On Oct 18, 8:46*pm, "
wrote:
On Oct 18, 10:32*am, Chris L Peterson





You should study up on law a little, too. You are committing libel here,
by accusing me of saying something that I did not say. Your action is
subject to legal action if I were so inclined; at the least, its highly
uncivil. Or maybe you simply lack the education to understand the role
of quotes in English. What's it going to be... uncivil and libelous, or
uneducated and stupid? Decisions, decisions.

What I said was that the collapse of civilization [from climate change]
is a very real possibility. That's a very different statement than what
you have attributed to me. Civilizations _have_ collapsed due to climate
shift: the Mayans (possibly by their own actions), the Anasazi, ancient
Greenlanders, and others. Modern societies in Africa have arguably
devolved to barbarism because of environmental strains. A
There is no doubt- no doubt at all- that the collapse of civilization is
a possibility that comes with global climate change. Nobody can put an
accurate number to the likelihood that this will happen; right now it's
probably a small number. But the ramifications are so negative that only
a fool would ignore the possibility.

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com

LOL. I am a lawyer dipstick. What you know of the law could be put in
a thimble.

Talk to a lawyer--if you know one--he will laugh in your face.

I was in sci.physics.relativity when Laurence Godfrey showed up and
watched how the rest of the particpants behaved -

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.p...1da5337f40e590

Needless to say the forum disintegrated after that happened except for
the few helpless cases who still believe in the unfortunate relativity
thingie.

No sense in blaming lawyers and programmers for diluting astronomy
into a magnification exercise wrapped up in a bubble celestial sphere
framework but when guys like Peterson start talking 'libel' and other
worthless legalistic junk then who ,for goodness sake,is going to post
here.

If I thought calling him seriously stupid and incompetent would help
the wider population understand what a mess exists then so be it but
it is a waste of energy .Empricists like Peterson and lawyers can
learn from Eleanor Roosevelt before posting here -

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt

On Oct 18, 9:17*pm, "
wrote:

Suspicions confirmed--I am debating with a homophobic nut case--waste
of time--bye now.

Have fun with your dog.

The only creature on this planet to place value on the life of human
beings is man and his dog. Look at the trouble that this has got us
into. We now outnumber anything of real value left on this doomed
planet.

I thought you had retired from this forum in acute embarrassment?
Didn't you get egg all over your face in trying to discuss optics
with one of the world's leading opticians through the bottom of your
whisky glass?

Your ego so far exceeds your IQ in brilliance that it might be clearly
seen from several light years away were it not for your vacuous
blustering which completely obscures your humanity from view. One day,
as you lie dying alone from terminal self-congratulation you will
realise that you have have had no value to the human race and that
your real purpose here was quite different. You were sent here to
learn from your past mistakes and perhaps to share whatever wisdom and
humour you had to offer. Bull****ters are two a penny. Dogs have great
value as loyal friends and teachers. Many of them can be taught new
tricks. Can we say the same of you?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:46:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

LOL. I am a lawyer dipstick. What you know of the law could be put in
a thimble.

So not only do you put yourself at risk for libel, you would also face
disbarment. However, if you're a lawyer, it's no longer a case of
ignorance. So that just leaves stupidity. Too bad... ignorance can be
corrected.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

You really think we can predict the weather for the next 200 years??
Pathetic.

I didn't say that.

The computer weather models are no better than cosmology computer
models--subject to dramatic changes to fit evolving data. Or perhaps
you think we now *know" all there is to know about cosmology??

I didn't say that.

Remember the dire predictions of the "coming ice age"; "The Population
Bomb", etc etc??--Malthus would have been proud of you.

We learn more, our ideas evolve (and usually improve). Are you saying
that we're crazy to believe the world is round, because not that long
ago people thought it was flat? And Malthus would seem to have been
correct- there's nothing to indicate the world isn't heading in that
direction. Only the time frame developed in the 1970s is wrong, because
the models were too simplistic.

Exactly how much do you claim ocean levels have risen in the last 10
years? 20 years? You pick the time frame??

In the last 10 years, about 30 mm. In the last 20 years, about 55 mm.
The current rate is about 3.3 mm per year. This will increase with the
lost of ice from Greenland, and probably from Antarctica.

Did you know Greenland was farmed in historical times? Without a
"collapse of civilization?

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. And civilization did collapse there.
Nothing is left of the farming communities from 1000 years ago. That's a
collapse due to changing climate.

What in the world do you do for a living? I would like to put your
nutty ideas in context.

I'm a physicist. I did well in the past with a company that designed and
manufactured surgical machines for ophthalmologists. These days, I only
take on projects that interest me. I design custom astronomical
instruments for professional observatories, I design autoguider systems
for satellites, I write some astronomical software, I do some web design
and graphic arts work. Without pay, I work with the Denver Museum of
Nature and Science, and schools around Colorado, to monitor and study
meteors.

Hope that helps with the context.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Oct 18, 3:00 pm, oriel36 wrote:

Needless to say the forum disintegrated after that happened except for
the few helpless cases who still believe in the unfortunate relativity
thingie.

Special Relativity is confirmed countless times each day; in fact, not
only are particle accelerators corrected for it, but now the GPS
satellites include corrections for *General* Relativity in order to
work properly!

Yes, I believe in Einstein's Theory of Relativity. I also believe that
when the Earth turns to bring my part of it to face the Sun, it does
so by moving towards the East, so the Sun appears to rise in the East
each morning.

John Savard