WI: Lunar Gemini

John Charles said:
But--Slayton's recollections aside--does anyone really believe that
any of the astronauts played an absolutely indispensible role in
making Skylab--or Apollo, or Gemini, or Mercury--flyable?

Seriously, I am asking for evidence of any astronaut's contribution
that was superior to lots and lots of non-astronauts, other than the
word of another astronaut.

That's an awfully difficult question to answer. In my own profession,
I've learned that sometimes the best thing to do is ask a difficult
question and let someone else deal with the implications. This avoids
the need to say "you are wrong", and it lets the other guy say "that's
interesting ... you know, if you take that idea and combine it with my
idea ... then you think about....". A single carefully chosen question
can guide someone into thinking deeper about a problem, and devising a
new solution, without the ego-issues of saying "you are wrong, I'm
right".

Mike Collins hints that he did this as a test pilot in Carrying The
Fire.

Wally's "I'm cooler than you, let's light this candle" might be an
example of this.

There is a classic example of this in From the Earth to the Moon where
Armstrong is in the LM simulator and just says almost nothing during a
simulated landing. The descent rate it too high and the simulated LM
crashes. By saying nothing, Armstrong manges to get Mission Control to
think about what they are doing and resolve some incorrect attitudes.

Wasn't there an Assimov story that dealt with the least possible change
to create a desired effect? There is an almost occidental philosophy in
saying almost nothing to generate the desired effect. If we assume the
astronauts were bright, they could have done this in a way that hid
their contributions.
--
Kevin Willoughby lid

We'd spend the remaining time trying to fix the engine.
-- Neil Armstron

Kevin Willoughby wrote in message ...
Wally's "I'm cooler than you, let's light this candle" might be an
example of this.
I believe that was Al Shepard in 1961.

Anyway, if I interpret the answers received so far, then it appears to
me that some of us really do believe that the astronauts made it all
happen, and the non-astronauts (administrators, program managers,
bean-counters, engineers, technicians, what-have-you) just sort of
marked time until an astronaut appeared on the scene.

Honestly, not the answer I was hoping for.

John Charles
Houston, Texas

In article ,
says...
Kevin Willoughby wrote in message ...
Wally's "I'm cooler than you, let's light this candle" might be an
example of this.
I believe that was Al Shepard in 1961.

Anyway, if I interpret the answers received so far, then it appears to
me that some of us really do believe that the astronauts made it all
happen, and the non-astronauts (administrators, program managers,
bean-counters, engineers, technicians, what-have-you) just sort of
marked time until an astronaut appeared on the scene.

Not at all. The astronauts were engineering test pilots, and as such did
have a fair amount of input to various of the system development
processes for Gemini and Apollo. Gus Grissom designed much of the
cockpit layout for Gemini, and Pete Conrad did the same thing for the
Apollo Lunar Module. They were brought in before any metal was cut and
arranged paper switches, dials and read-outs on plywood cockpit surfaces
to optimize the usability of the cockpits.

Mike Collins had a large amount of input to the design of the hand-held
maneuvering unit used on Gemini IV and his own Gemini X. He also had a
lot of input on the EVA suit design.

Nearly all of the Mercury astronauts made design suggestions that were
incorporated into later Mercury spacecraft, including the window. They
also worked with designers to modify the cockpit instrumentation to
optimize its use.

In addition, astronauts had a *lot* of influence on the procedures
followed within the spacecraft. They had to fly the things, after all.

These are just a few well-known examples of astronaut inputs to hardware,
software and procedures designs. There are lots more.

This is exactly the same kind of input that engineering test pilots have
brought to airplane development and testing programs. These weren't just
pilots, most of them had engineering degrees and were just as qualified
to have design inputs as a guy who spent his entire career flying a
drafting table.

The question I have is why do you have a problem with astronauts being
given credit for the work they did when they weren't preparing for or
flying missions? What's your agenda?

--

It's not the pace of life I mind; | Doug Van Dorn
it's the sudden stop at the end... |

I think a lot of this has to do with the astronaut being the practical
voice. How many times have you heard the phrase "engineers don't use
what they design."

I hate to do another FTETTM reference, but in "1968" there's a great
scene where Borman is in the design room at Downey talking about
redesigning the hatch. The new hatch is put on and Borman sees what
they're doing and says "wait a minute ..." He then grabs a chair and
sits in the CM skeleton like he's seated and then shows the engineers
why their design isn't going to work PRACTICALLY.

I think this is the kind of input the astronauts gave. They saw where
the engineers were going and then said "okay, let's look at this from
the astronaut's" perspective ...

In article ,
says...

snip

I think this is the kind of input the astronauts gave. They saw where
the engineers were going and then said "okay, let's look at this from
the astronaut's" perspective ...

And, as I pointed out earlier, many of the astronauts during Mercury,
Gemini and Apollo were engineers themselves. Those who didn't have
engineering degrees had learned a lot of aeronautical engineering during
their test pilot days. (The *very* few astronauts who didn't have either
an engineering degree or test pilot experience generally had other
degrees or experience useful in the design and operation of manned
spacecraft.)

When you hire engineers, you use their engineering skills. It's stupid
not to.

Granted, the astronauts' contributions have gotten more press than those
of the nameless guys at the North American or McDonnell or Grumman
drafting tables. It's in the nature of America's lionization of the
astronauts -- we needed heroes and the media provided them. But many
non-astronauts, like Max Faget, Caldwell Johnson, Tom Kelly, John Aaron,
Chris Kraft and Gene Kranz, among others, also got a lot of press and had
their contributions recognized.

--

It's not the pace of life I mind; | Doug Van Dorn
it's the sudden stop at the end... |

On 23 Jul 2003 08:56:44 -0700, (JGDeRuvo) wrote:

I hate to do another FTETTM reference, but in "1968" there's a great
scene where Borman is in the design room at Downey talking about
redesigning the hatch. The new hatch is put on and Borman sees what
they're doing and says "wait a minute ..." He then grabs a chair and
sits in the CM skeleton like he's seated and then shows the engineers
why their design isn't going to work PRACTICALLY.

....However, on the flip side, did any of the Astronauts assigned to
Bethpage and the LM give any input regarding the initial proposals to
change from seated to standing during flight? That was all engineers,
kids.

....But, to be fair, on the flipside of *that*, there is the issue of
fitting square backpacks in round hatches after the need for a round
hatch had already been eliminated :-)


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
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