Debris found in Southern CA Desert - Anyone know what it might be?

Paul wrote:

Greetings all,

My hiker friend took another trip out to the site yesterday and found
some more debris about 1/2 mile away. I didn't get a chance to talk
to him before he went, but he took a few more photos which are here,
scanned from disposable camera prints : -o

http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/


Well that's the underside of the wing, as shown by the projecting flap
hinge- now I'm not _sure_ about this, but the aerilon, flap, and panel
layout resembles that of a A-5 Vigilante Navy supersonic attack bomber;
which is one of the few aircraft that has that fairing on the outside of
the wing visible to the right in this photo:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/pages/item2a.htm
Compare http://avionsdechasse.free.fr/chasse...5vigilante.jpg
The Vigilante also has landing gear that retracts entirely into the
fuselage, as opposed to the fuselage and wings; and this has no visible
gear doors on the wing.
Now...assuming this _is_ a crashed Vigilante, when the first gizmo you
found and photographed may be the Vigilante's one certifiably strange
feature...its bomb bay door. The A-5 had a slopping internal tubular
bomb bay that ran most of the length of the aircraft from behind the
cockpit to the back end where it emerged between the engine nozzles:
http://ciel.me.cmu.edu/soji/photo/00...igilante02.jpg
Housed in the tubular bomb bay was an atomic weapon hanging on the front
end of two fuel drop tanks- once the tank assembly was empty it served
to stabilize the bomb as it extended folding fins at its rear end and
both the tanks and the attached bomb were ejected backwards out of the
plane: http://www.vectorsite.net/ava53.jpg
This would neatly explain both the hydraulic/pneumatic cylinders and
their insulation blankets; it's hot back there, and these are the means
by which the bomb bay door (doors? I'm not sure how exactly it
opens...clamshell-like...or retracting up and into the body like a early
torpedo tube cap?) opens. The layout of the cylinders suggests upwards
and inwards to me.
I've contacted a Vigilante website about this, and forwarded the web
address for the pictures to it.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
Housed in the tubular bomb bay was an atomic weapon hanging ...

Maybe Paul should have another close look at that debris site...

Pat, thanks for doing that research. I'm looking forward to any
further results that come out of that effort with the Vigilante
board..

One thing that caught my attention is the relative position of the
wing relative to the fuselage - it appears to be close to the middle,
but I don't know if the circular bulkhead in the photo matches the
outside shape of the aircraft.

-Paul



On Wed, 26 May 2004 03:58:59 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:



Paul wrote:

Greetings all,

My hiker friend took another trip out to the site yesterday and found
some more debris about 1/2 mile away. I didn't get a chance to talk
to him before he went, but he took a few more photos which are here,
scanned from disposable camera prints : -o

http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/


Well that's the underside of the wing, as shown by the projecting flap
hinge- now I'm not _sure_ about this, but the aerilon, flap, and panel
layout resembles that of a A-5 Vigilante Navy supersonic attack bomber;
which is one of the few aircraft that has that fairing on the outside of
the wing visible to the right in this photo:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/pages/item2a.htm
Compare http://avionsdechasse.free.fr/chasse...5vigilante.jpg
The Vigilante also has landing gear that retracts entirely into the
fuselage, as opposed to the fuselage and wings; and this has no visible
gear doors on the wing.
Now...assuming this _is_ a crashed Vigilante, when the first gizmo you
found and photographed may be the Vigilante's one certifiably strange
feature...its bomb bay door. The A-5 had a slopping internal tubular
bomb bay that ran most of the length of the aircraft from behind the
cockpit to the back end where it emerged between the engine nozzles:
http://ciel.me.cmu.edu/soji/photo/00...igilante02.jpg
Housed in the tubular bomb bay was an atomic weapon hanging on the front
end of two fuel drop tanks- once the tank assembly was empty it served
to stabilize the bomb as it extended folding fins at its rear end and
both the tanks and the attached bomb were ejected backwards out of the
plane: http://www.vectorsite.net/ava53.jpg
This would neatly explain both the hydraulic/pneumatic cylinders and
their insulation blankets; it's hot back there, and these are the means
by which the bomb bay door (doors? I'm not sure how exactly it
opens...clamshell-like...or retracting up and into the body like a early
torpedo tube cap?) opens. The layout of the cylinders suggests upwards
and inwards to me.
I've contacted a Vigilante website about this, and forwarded the web
address for the pictures to it.

Pat

Harald Kucharek wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote:

Housed in the tubular bomb bay was an atomic weapon hanging ...


Maybe Paul should have another close look at that debris site...


If one of those had gone missing, I'm pretty sure that a thorough search
would have been done for it. :-)
Although IIRC there still is one lost in a swamp down south- but sans
its plutonium sphere.

Pat

Paul wrote:

Pat, thanks for doing that research. I'm looking forward to any
further results that come out of that effort with the Vigilante
board..

Nothing back yet.


One thing that caught my attention is the relative position of the
wing relative to the fuselage - it appears to be close to the middle,

There is fuselage debris other than the wing attachment debris
associated with this? If there is quite a bit of it that should make
identifying it a piece of cake
The Vigilante's wing was mounted quite far back on the fuselage:
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Gra...A-5A_3view.gif

but I don't know if the circular bulkhead in the photo matches the
outside shape of the aircraft.

It could be an engine intake duct frame member.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
Harald Kucharek wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote:

Housed in the tubular bomb bay was an atomic weapon hanging ...

Maybe Paul should have another close look at that debris site...

If one of those had gone missing, I'm pretty sure that a thorough search
would have been done for it. :-)

The Vig also had a 'dummy' bomb/ 'live' fuel tank combo that it
carried for day-to-day operations, but IIRC it was not jettisonable.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

Derek Lyons wrote:

The Vig also had a 'dummy' bomb/ 'live' fuel tank combo that it
carried for day-to-day operations, but IIRC it was not jettisonable.


They found out the hard way that the bomb itself wasn't very
jettisonable... IIRC, during a test one got caught in the aircraft's
slipstream and started following the plane around until it reduced its
speed enough for the bomb/fuel tank assembly to fall clear...it also had
a tendency to slide out the back of the aircraft during catapult launch:
http://www.air-navy.com/a3j-usn.htm like a turd from hell.
The aircraft promptly got changed into a recon machine.

Pat

What about the vertical rudder from an F-8?

See this link for comparison:

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/rf...806230_JPG.jpg

the mid-fuselage attachment fits, as does the slight extension in the
trailing edge. it also has that bulbous "thingy" close to the tip.

it was also found east of San Diego, which would most likely mean a Navy
or Marine A/C.

Dean

Pat Flannery wrote:


Oddly enough, that was the first one that popped into my mind also- but
if that's the case, then where are the guns?

Pat

On Tue, 25 May 2004 08:18:57 -0400, (Mike
Flugennock) wrote:

In article , Scott Ferrin wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2004 05:59:12 GMT, Paul wrote:

The item in the photo at the link below was found impacted on the
desert floor .... anyone seen anything like this before?

Please excuse the shadow - the photographer wasn't paying attention.


121KB

http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/wreckage_sm.jpg


I wonder if that smooth piece towards the bottom is the piece of
fairing on an afterburner that butts up against the skin of the
aircraft and the cylinders are the actuators for expanding and
contracting the nozzle on the afterburner...




...and I wouldn't sweat the shadow, myself, Paul; do you realize how many
MER images we have of beautiful sweeping Martian landscapes and raw,
pitted lava rocks taken in early morning or late afternoon, where the
rover had the sun at her back and you can see the shadow of her "head" in
the picture?


Why the hell did you attatch this non sequitur to MY post?

In article ,
Pat Flannery wrote:
The Vig also had a 'dummy' bomb/ 'live' fuel tank combo that it
carried for day-to-day operations, but IIRC it was not jettisonable...

They found out the hard way that the bomb itself wasn't very
jettisonable...
The aircraft promptly got changed into a recon machine.

If memory serves, the bomb-ejection system did *eventually* work, although
only after a lot of development grief. The switch to the recon role was
because of a more global change: the USN strategic-weapon-delivery
mission was transferred from the carrier-based bombers to the missile
subs. The carrier-based bombers had to find other roles, and by and large
they weren't well-suited to the attack role, so they ended up doing things
like recon and EW.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |