Gravitational self-interaction near black holes?

Hello,

I came across a rather odd notion concerning black holes the other
day. Seeing as gravitational interaction is commonly believed to act
at light speed, how can a black hole exert any gravitational influence
on its surroundings? Surely for this to be possible gravity shouldn't
be able to act upon itself?

I'm not sure whether a gravitational field can act upon itself at all.
I like to think I'm fairly familiar with most astrophysical concepts,
but this keeps puzzling me. Any ideas on the subject?

Kind regards,

Christiaan Brinkerink

Brink Wheeler told us gravitons can attract gravitons. I hope that
helps? Bert

A gravitational body is assumed to act as a point source in physics.
Otherwise, you'd have to analyze every atom and particle which gets
too complicated.

Just because a star collapses to a black hole doesn't stop it's
gravity from being observable far away.

I hope that helps a little...

Saul Levy


On 11 Sep 2004 08:41:41 -0700, (Christiaan
Brinkerink) wrote:

Hello,

I came across a rather odd notion concerning black holes the other
day. Seeing as gravitational interaction is commonly believed to act
at light speed, how can a black hole exert any gravitational influence
on its surroundings? Surely for this to be possible gravity shouldn't
be able to act upon itself?

I'm not sure whether a gravitational field can act upon itself at all.
I like to think I'm fairly familiar with most astrophysical concepts,
but this keeps puzzling me. Any ideas on the subject?

Kind regards,

Christiaan Brinkerink

Throw away the idea of gravitons and particle exchange, and gravity exists as a part of space/time structure built into the very
fabric of the Universe.
Not that there is 'something' that acts as a medium for this fabric, that is just an analogy.
As I have said before, we don't have the right words for this so I need so leeway here.

We keep looking for a mechanism to explain how gravity works, I don't believe there is one. We are fairly good at describing
gravity's behaviour and making predictions of its effect on things/energy and so on, but we don't know the means by which one
could - even in theory - make a gravity field one could turn on and off. (we do have theories that make these claims though, but
the science behind them is less than credible)

Back in the old days of history folk asked how the Earth was supported, and the answer was a succession of animals. Elephants, and
what are they standing on, Buffalo and... so on.

With gravity it seems we are in the same place! We just can't accept it is just a natural law.
If we could go back in time and tell the thinkers of Greece that the Earth just hangs there in space - here look at these photos.
Their reaction would be aghast - photos... what are photos..?

Which of course would be nothing compared to the reaction you would get explaining how you got them!

Standing here on the surface of Earth I can overcome this entires planet gravity by jumping. This demonstrates just how weak
gravity really is. I then try and comprehend the gravity attraction one small atom must have and how that fits in with quantum
physics. As the attraction force for one atom is far smaller than is allowed - how is gravity possible?

Inside a singularity gravity tears apart atoms till there is nothing, which causes the gravity to increase and attract you and
everything - to this nothing? Clearly our ideas are wrong on seeing Gravity as a separate force like any of the other forms of
energy.
If there is nothing there how is gravity being caused?

Time I think has to be part of the answer.


Regards
Robert

"Christiaan Brinkerink" wrote in message om...
Hello,

I came across a rather odd notion concerning black holes the other
day. Seeing as gravitational interaction is commonly believed to act
at light speed, how can a black hole exert any gravitational influence
on its surroundings? Surely for this to be possible gravity shouldn't
be able to act upon itself?

I'm not sure whether a gravitational field can act upon itself at all.
I like to think I'm fairly familiar with most astrophysical concepts,
but this keeps puzzling me. Any ideas on the subject?

Kind regards,

Christiaan Brinkerink


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If there is nothing there how is gravity
being caused?

if there's "nothing" there, it's gotta be caused by equations, metrics,
and sky pixies. Heh. Just had to de-lurk for that one.
back to lurk mode... oc

"You cant fool me. It's Sky Pixies all the
way down."

"EvolBob" wrote in message ...
Throw away the idea of gravitons and particle exchange, and gravity exists as a part of space/time structure built into the very
fabric of the Universe.
Not that there is 'something' that acts as a medium for this fabric, that is just an analogy.
As I have said before, we don't have the right words for this so I need so leeway here.

We keep looking for a mechanism to explain how gravity works, I don't believe there is one. We are fairly good at describing
gravity's behaviour and making predictions of its effect on things/energy and so on, but we don't know the means by which one
could - even in theory - make a gravity field one could turn on and off. (we do have theories that make these claims though, but
the science behind them is less than credible)

Back in the old days of history folk asked how the Earth was supported, and the answer was a succession of animals. Elephants, and
what are they standing on, Buffalo and... so on.

With gravity it seems we are in the same place! We just can't accept it is just a natural law.
If we could go back in time and tell the thinkers of Greece that the Earth just hangs there in space - here look at these photos.
Their reaction would be aghast - photos... what are photos..?

Which of course would be nothing compared to the reaction you would get explaining how you got them!

Standing here on the surface of Earth I can overcome this entires planet gravity by jumping.


You can't jump very far.


This demonstrates just how weak
gravity really is. I then try and comprehend the gravity attraction one small atom must have and how that fits in with quantum
physics. As the attraction force for one atom is far smaller than is allowed - how is gravity possible?


How small of a force is allowed?


Inside a singularity gravity tears apart atoms till there is nothing, which causes the gravity to increase and attract you and
everything - to this nothing? Clearly our ideas are wrong on seeing Gravity as a separate force like any of the other forms of
energy.
If there is nothing there how is gravity being caused?


How can there be nothing there when everything is there?


Time I think has to be part of the answer.


Regards
Robert


Indeed.

Double-A

Robert Einstien knew quantum gravity was a better theory than GR. Just
as he knew SR with light having a constant speed of 186,000 mps would
destroy the traditional Newtonian universal view.(it did) Robert it
even sounds crazy to think no matter how fast you chase a light beam,it
still retreats from you at the speed of light.(not one mile in speed
change) My "spin is in theory" makes good use of quantum gravity
messenger particle the "graviton" It also can be used to create
magnetisim attraction. It proves what Wheeler told us all things
attract all things (mutual attraction) That means photons can attract
each other as well as gravitons can attract each other. Bert

nightbat wrote

oldcoot wrote:

If there is nothing there how is gravity
being caused?

if there's "nothing" there, it's gotta be caused by equations, metrics,
and sky pixies. Heh. Just had to de-lurk for that one.
back to lurk mode... oc

"You cant fool me. It's Sky Pixies all the
way down."

nightbat

Hello oc, and how are you, it's about time, and please leave
your cloaking devise on off for this other Maverick king needs to have a
rest call once in awhile too you know? The herd as a general rule is
unrelenting when it comes to needing supervision and assurance towards
the greater picture and the space flow dynamic insight. Mathematical
equations including theoretical understanding of field metrics only had
hoped to deduce the field not cause it. Please oc, I have my hands full
with the sci fi selling boys and their wide eyed following puppy, Bert,
who swallows their theoretical tune hook line and sinker. The space or
field flow doesn't need fairies, or sky pixies, or imaginary gravitons,
it needs a hero's tight hand on the reins of the flex steed to head and
lead the herd in the right direction towards uniformity. I have advised
the cause of gravity force effect is the default propensity of the base
original field to attempt renormalize from a present multi disturbed non
uniform one. This is the missing frame sought by all in the search for
the temple of the unified field theory.

Nightbat, the humble science Maverick, found it and respectfully
has informed all of its profound implications. No need for magical
gravity causing particles, no need for aether, just 5th dimension pure
energy volume of space for all particles are therefore only in altered
state of there self macro and quantum existence. Does the existence of
particles negate their own existence due to their propensity to attract,
dispel, or unite, whether in the macro or micro state, no, because of
different or co-existent possibility states and of their difference in
momentum ability. Can all particles however alternately possibly self
unite in search towards total base field uniformity, yes, potentially,
but the energy base field is a dominant one fiercely flex recoiling when
not relatively and timely aliened in exact metric flow to unified
pointing momentum. Under this unifying premise, of overriding dimension
self exactness and flexibility, pointing therefore to infinite volume,
time, endless mathematical combinations possibilities, and only common
denominator factor that has all of this common infinite recumbent
possibility, is energy, and its fundamental unifying understanding and
present observed non uniform flow within itself.


the nightbat