The hydrogen "bridge" between Andromeda Galaxy and the Triangulum Galaxy, - What doe

What does it mean???
Between the two spiral galaxies there is a Hydrogen cloud bridge. The two galaxies are traveling at ultra high speed in the space, but at full synchronization with each other. This enables them to maintain the Hydrogen Bridge. In the past the two galaxies were close to each other. Never the less, there is no evidence for collision between those galaxies. Andromeda is a supper giant spiral Galaxy.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0508131700.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0611193632.htm
"The new observations confirm a disputed 2004 discovery of hydrogen gas streaming between the giant Andromeda Galaxy, also known as M31, and the Triangulum Galaxy, or M33."
"The hydrogen "bridge" between the galaxies was discovered in 2004 by astronomers using the Westerbork Synthesis Radio Telescope in the Netherlands "
"The GBT was also able to track the motion of these newly discovered clouds, showing that they were traveling through space at velocities similar to M31 and M33"
"The researchers also speculate that these clouds may represent a new and previously unrecognized source of neutral hydrogen gas that could eventually fall into M31 and M33, fueling future generations of star formation."
"The properties of this gas indicate that these two galaxies may have passed close together in the distant past," said Jay Lockman, of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO). "Studying what may be a gaseous link between the two can give us a new key to understanding the evolution of both galaxies," he added.
"We think it's very likely that the hydrogen gas we see between M31 and M33 is the remnant of a tidal tail that originated during a close encounter, probably billions of years ago," said Spencer Wolfe, of West Virginia University. "The encounter had to be long ago, because neither galaxy shows evidence of disruption today,"
Wiki - "Triangulum may be home to 40 billion stars, compared to 400 billion for the Milky Way, and 1 trillion (1000 billion) stars for Andromeda."

Based on that, we have to ask the following questions:
1. How close together they were in the past?
2. If they were close enough, why the gravity didn't force them to collide?
3. If they had been forced to collide, why there is no sign for collision?
4. Is there any meaning for the fact that Andromeda is like a giant mother Spiral Galaxy while the Triangulum is like a baby Spiral galaxy.
5. If they are moving in space at Ultra High Speed (Both are facing the Milky way galaxy), how come that they are only drifting apart? What is the speed for this drifting?
6. Is it feasible that they were one galaxy in the past???
7. What is the source for this Hydrogen Bridge?
8. Why they are moving in full synchronization and maintain the hydrogen bridge. (For me it looks like an Umbilical cord…)
9. Is it possible that the galaxies generate a steady stream of Hydrogen while they are drifting apart?
10. Therefore, is it feasible that those spiral galaxies have the ability to generate New Hydrogen Atoms?

Dear David Levy:

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 6:20:10 AM UTC-7, David Levy wrote:
....
Based on that, we have to ask the following questions:
1. How close together they were in the past?

They passed through each other.

2. If they were close enough, why the gravity
didn't force them to collide?

Gravity is not a force. Galaxies are mostly sparse enough they pass right through one another. Gravitational boosting can deposit mass into either galaxy, but the dust (at this distance, this is all we can see, we cannot yet see the stars) is likely to follow the larger mass center.

3. If they had been forced to collide, why
there is no sign for collision?

The "naked" globular clusters are the evidence. Are you expecting bumpers and broken tail lights?

4. Is there any meaning

There is no Divine Plan, so no Meaning, discernible in Science.


for the fact that Andromeda is like a giant mother
Spiral Galaxy while the Triangulum is like a baby
Spiral galaxy.

The size of their respective black holes, and the attendant stars too.

5. If they are moving in space at Ultra High
Speed (Both are facing the Milky way galaxy), how
come that they are only drifting apart?

One could easily say we were roaring towards them, and then your question disappears as being of little import.

6. Is it feasible that they were one galaxy
in the past???

Possible, but Triangulum would have had to have been gravitationally boosted by yet a third galaxy... and this probably would have made Triangulum elliptical (at most symmetric).

7. What is the source for this Hydrogen Bridge?

All of intergalactic space is filled with stars and highly ionized oxygen and hydrogen. If this is neutral hydrogen, then it was probably outer rim material of the galaxies that Andromeda consumed, leaving the smaller shell of M31.

8. Why they are moving in full synchronization
and maintain the hydrogen bridge. (For me it looks
like an Umbilical cord).

Conservation of momentum. Look at the dust tracks following bits of the cement truck that Mythbusters blew up...

9. Is it possible that the galaxies generate a
steady stream of Hydrogen while they are drifting
apart?

Conservation of energy. No. If local properties derive from the Universe at large (a Machian argument), changes to the contents of the Universe will change the fundamental "constants".

10. Therefore, is it feasible that those spiral
galaxies have the ability to generate New Hydrogen
Atoms?

We have never seen this before, in any other context. Since we are not even able to see the Dark Mass and the normal mass it in all likelihood it is, we cannot be sure it is not just recombination of ionized hydrogen.

11. Hence, isn't it a hint for the Steady state Theory???

Steady State is long dead.
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/stdystat.htm
.... so it is relegated to religious belief.

David A. Smith

In article ,
David Levy writes:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0508131700.htm

While "science by press release" is always dubious, the point of the
release above is that the neutral hydrogen gas is (probably) _not_ a
tidal tail.

The researchers also speculate that these clouds may represent a new and
previously unrecognized source of neutral hydrogen gas that could
eventually fall into M31 and M33, fueling future generations of star
formation.

Right. The suggestion is that the gas is intra-cluster hydrogen,
which has been present forever but is only now forming into gas
clouds dense enough to detect. This is at least qualitatively
consistent with dark matter simulations.

It's not clear to me whether other locations in the Local Group have
been searched so thoroughly for gas clouds. These clouds might be
all over the place but not seen yet. (Their mass is tiny, so it
wouldn't change anything from that point of view.)

The properties of this gas indicate that these two galaxies may have
passed close together in the distant past," said Jay Lockman

The above quote is from the older press release, now apparently
superseded.

1. How close together were [M31 and M33] in the past?

Unknown. Not necessarily close at all if the current interpretation
of the gas clouds is correct. Perhaps within half a megaparsec if
the older interpretation of tidal tails is right.

2. If they were close enough, why the gravity didn't force them to
collide?

Because they weren't heading directly towards each other. Why
doesn't gravity force the Earth to collide with the Sun?

3. If they had been forced to collide, why there is no sign for
collision?

There was no major collision between M31 and M33. There might have
been a distant interaction. I'm sure you can find simulations of
galaxy collisions on the web if you look.

4. Is there any meaning for the fact that Andromeda is like a giant
mother Spiral Galaxy while the Triangulum is like a baby Spiral galaxy.

Galaxies come in a wide range of sizes. (I am not sure the masses
the OP quoted are correct; Wikipedia is not necessarily a reliable
source.)

5. If they are moving in space at Ultra High Speed (Both are facing the
Milky way galaxy), how come that they are only drifting apart?

What does "moving in space" mean? In particular, what are they
moving relative to, and why do you think it is at "Ultra High Speed?"

6. Is it feasible that they were one galaxy in the past???

No. What would have separated them?

7. What is the source for this Hydrogen Bridge?

Most likely primordial hydrogen gas, according to the later press
release, but I'm not sure how thoroughly a tidal tail has been ruled
out.

8. Why they are moving in full synchronization and maintain the hydrogen
bridge. (For me it looks like an Umbilical cord…)

What do you mean by "full synchronization," and what makes you think
they are moving that way? Both galaxies and the hydrogen gas are
part of the Local Group, so the relative motions will not be huge.
And what something "looks like" is often misleading.

9. Is it possible that the galaxies generate a steady stream of Hydrogen
while they are drifting apart?

That would be "new physics." Unless there's compelling evidence,
nobody is going to take it seriously. Neither interpretation of the
hydrogen clouds requires new hydrogen to be generated.

10. Therefore, is it feasible that those spiral galaxies have the
ability to generate New Hydrogen Atoms?

Again new physics with no evidence.

11. Hence, isn't it a hint for the Steady state Theory???

No. Steady State -- which I quite like as a theory -- is dead
because its most fundamental prediction is contradicted by
observations.

--
Help keep our newsgroup healthy; please don't feed the trolls.
Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA

On 22/05/2013 9:20 AM, David Levy wrote:
Based on that, we have to ask the following questions:
1. How close together they were in the past?

Unknown, but remember orbits aren't necessarily only circular, some can
be elliptical. In elliptical orbits, the galaxies might swing around
each other without touching or colliding. At some point in the orbit
they are closer together, and sometimes they are further apart. The two
might be on their larger distances right now, but at some point in the
future, they may come in for a close call again.

While they were on their close call, some gas might have been pulled off
of both galaxies forming a tidal tail. The shape of the tidal tail may
actually point to the shape of the two galaxy's orbital shape too, as
the tidal tails would basically follow their orbit around each other.

2. If they were close enough, why the gravity didn't force them to
collide?

Most likely they came close, but they had sufficient lateral velocity to
miss each other.

3. If they had been forced to collide, why there is no sign for
collision?

Because they didn't collide.

4. Is there any meaning for the fact that Andromeda is like a giant
mother Spiral Galaxy while the Triangulum is like a baby Spiral galaxy.

No, two galaxies will merge but two galaxies won't ever emerge from one.

5. If they are moving in space at Ultra High Speed (Both are facing the
Milky way galaxy), how come that they are only drifting apart?

There's lots of separate motions that they are undergoing. One is not
related to the other.

6. Is it feasible that they were one galaxy in the past???

No, but it's feasible that there will be only one galaxy in the future.

7. What is the source for this Hydrogen Bridge?

Several theories, one being a tidal tail. Another recent theory is that
it's actually a separate dark dwarf galaxy between the two bigger galaxies.

8. Why they are moving in full synchronization and maintain the hydrogen
bridge. (For me it looks like an Umbilical cord…)

Yes, it may look like an umbilical cord, but that doesn't make it a
galactic birth, in the sense you are thinking of it.

9. Is it possible that the galaxies generate a steady stream of Hydrogen
while they are drifting apart?

Generate? No. Pull-out hydrogen? Sure.

10. Therefore, is it feasible that those spiral galaxies have the
ability to generate New Hydrogen Atoms?

No.

11. Hence, isn't it a hint for the Steady state Theory???

No.

Yousuf Khan

On May 22, 6:20*am, David Levy
wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0611193632.htm
"The new observations confirm a disputed 2004 discovery of hydrogen gas
streaming between the giant Andromeda Galaxy, also known as M31, and the
Triangulum Galaxy, or M33."
"The hydrogen "bridge" between the galaxies was discovered in 2004 by
astronomers using the Westerbork Synthesis Radio Telescope in the
Netherlands "
"The GBT was also able to track the motion of these newly discovered
clouds, showing that they were traveling through space at velocities
similar to M31 and M33"
The researchers also speculate that these clouds may represent a new and
previously unrecognized source of neutral hydrogen gas that could
eventually fall into M31 and M33, fueling future generations of star
formation.
The properties of this gas indicate that these two galaxies may have
passed close together in the distant past," said Jay Lockman, of the
National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO). "Studying what may be a
gaseous link between the two can give us a new key to understanding the
evolution of both galaxies," he added.
"We think it's very likely that the hydrogen gas we see between M31 and
M33 is the remnant of a tidal tail that originated during a close
encounter, probably billions of years ago," said Spencer Wolfe, of West
Virginia University. "The encounter had to be long ago, because neither
galaxy shows evidence of disruption today,"
Wiki - "Triangulum may be home to 40 billion stars, compared to 400
billion for the Milky Way, and 1 trillion (1000 billion) stars for
Andromeda."[6]
So let's summarize –
Between the two spiral galaxies there is a Hydrogen cloud bridge. *The
two galaxies are traveling at ultra high speed in the space, but at full
synchronization with each other. This enables them to maintain the
Hydrogen Bridge. In the past the two galaxies were close to each other.
Never the less, there is no evidence for collision between those
galaxies. Andromeda is a supper giant spiral Galaxy.

Based on that, we have to ask the following questions:
1. * * *How close together they were in the past?
2. * * *If they were close enough, why the gravity didn't force them to
collide?
3. * * *If they had been forced to collide, why there is no sign for
collision?
4. * * *Is there any meaning for the fact that Andromeda is like a giant
mother Spiral Galaxy while the Triangulum is like a baby Spiral galaxy.
5. * * *If they are moving in space at Ultra High Speed (Both are facing the
Milky way galaxy), how come that they are only drifting apart?
6. * * *Is it feasible that they were one galaxy in the past???
7. * * *What is the source for this Hydrogen Bridge?
8. * * *Why they are moving in full synchronization and maintain the hydrogen
bridge. (For me it looks like an Umbilical cord…)
9. * * *Is it possible that the galaxies generate a steady stream of Hydrogen
while they are drifting apart?
10. * * Therefore, is it feasible that those spiral galaxies have the
ability to generate New Hydrogen Atoms?
11. * * Hence, isn't it a hint for the Steady state Theory???

--
David Levy

Where's all the helium that has to be out there?

There should be a third helium by now, as well as more heavier
elements than ever.

However, mpc755 wants us to accept that elements like hydrogen and
helium condense out of the ongoing flow of aether, instead of
materializing from that magical BB process derived from nothing, which
offers us zilch worth of anything objective to go by unless prior to
the BB our universe was contained in a pair of enormously massive
black holes that merged and imploded from containing too much mass
packed into too small of volume.

If helium supposedly started out as representing 24% the mass of our
universe, one could easily speculate that by now it should be worth
considerably more as the unavoidable main-sequence of hydrogen fusion
and otherwise heavy element fission keeps making more of it, and
perhaps most of that unbound helium that’s created on the ISM and IGM
fly is also unionized, as nearly invisible and kinda immortal because
helium doesn’t naturally bind with anything.

The faint ionized bluish color of helium is detectable, but only with
applied narrow bandpass image filtering and/or color channel
emphasizing, because those helium photons are simply considerably less
illuminating than hydrogen unless undergoing fusion, and the unionized
helium is practically as invisible as aether, and yet this all-
inclusive helium could represent as much as a third(2e55 kg) the mass
of our 6e55 kg universe that’s mostly comprised of dark matter or
aether.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba.../#.Ua3yAjdOSSo

http://www.eso.org/public/archives/i...n/eso1111a.jpg
“In this kinda-sorta false color image from the ESO’s Very Large
Telescope, blue shows ionized helium at a wavelength of 468.6
nanometers (which is roughly blue to the eye), green is unionized
helium (587.6 nm, green to the eye), and red is warm hydrogen (656 nm,
again, red). It’s not really true color because the filters used to
make this image are what astronomers call very narrow, letting through
only a very thin slice of a given color. What we call red to the eye
is actually a wide range of wavelengths, covering 650 to 700
nanometers. But the red filter used in this image only lets through a
teeny sliver of red light, where hydrogen tends to emit. Any red
outside that wavelength doesn’t get through, and the same is true for
the colors of the other filters.”

There’s actually enough spare helium to entirely comprise a few super-
massive and ultra-bright stars as having hardly any hydrogen, and
otherwise as eventually having become carbon from the demise of stars
that sequenced their spent helium as carbon into forming white dwarfs,
and thereby inferring an ongoing reduction in the available mass of
hydrogen unless the ongoing flow of aether is still capable of
creating that element of hydrogen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_helium_star
“The known extreme helium stars are supergiants where hydrogen is
underabundant by a factor of 10,000 or more. The surface temperatures
of these stars range from 9,000–35,000 K. They are primarily composed
of helium, with the second most abundant element, carbon, forming
about one atom per 100 atoms of helium. The chemical composition of
these stars implies that they have undergone both hydrogen and helium
burning at some stage of their evolution.”

Perhaps 99% of whatever solar wind given off by these extreme helium
supergiants is simply blowing off extremely hot and obviously ionized
helium, because their 12~14% mass as inert carbon that’s surrounded by
helium fusion, by rights should remain as nicely sequestered at their
core.

Eventually when this universe becomes mostly helium along with its
demise as carbon from the fusion of its helium, we’ll get another BB,
or at least one hell of a helium flashover as most everything turns
into an extremely compressed carbon sphere of 100,000 K that should be
nearly immortal considering there’s nothing left to transfer heat or
energy to.

Back to pondering Sirius(b), as it must have produced quite an
impressive initial birth as its "clumpy and episodic" main-sequence
phase, and came to an extremely feisty and vibrant life as of so
recently, and nearby to us.
http://www.space.com/21444-sun-growt...evolution.html
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sc..._124818160.htm
““The researchers found that TW Hydrae's growth process was "clumpy
and episodic" as the accreting gas did not fall into the star at a
steady, even rate. For example, the amount of material landing on the
star changed by a factor of five over the course of a few days. That
suggested the Sun probably also grew in fits and starts in its
infancy.””



On May 22, 6:20*am, David Levy
wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0611193632.htm
"The new observations confirm a disputed 2004 discovery of hydrogen gas
streaming between the giant Andromeda Galaxy, also known as M31, and the
Triangulum Galaxy, or M33."
"The hydrogen "bridge" between the galaxies was discovered in 2004 by
astronomers using the Westerbork Synthesis Radio Telescope in the
Netherlands "
"The GBT was also able to track the motion of these newly discovered
clouds, showing that they were traveling through space at velocities
similar to M31 and M33"
The researchers also speculate that these clouds may represent a new and
previously unrecognized source of neutral hydrogen gas that could
eventually fall into M31 and M33, fueling future generations of star
formation.
The properties of this gas indicate that these two galaxies may have
passed close together in the distant past," said Jay Lockman, of the
National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO). "Studying what may be a
gaseous link between the two can give us a new key to understanding the
evolution of both galaxies," he added.
"We think it's very likely that the hydrogen gas we see between M31 and
M33 is the remnant of a tidal tail that originated during a close
encounter, probably billions of years ago," said Spencer Wolfe, of West
Virginia University. "The encounter had to be long ago, because neither
galaxy shows evidence of disruption today,"
Wiki - "Triangulum may be home to 40 billion stars, compared to 400
billion for the Milky Way, and 1 trillion (1000 billion) stars for
Andromeda."[6]
So let's summarize –
Between the two spiral galaxies there is a Hydrogen cloud bridge. *The
two galaxies are traveling at ultra high speed in the space, but at full
synchronization with each other. This enables them to maintain the
Hydrogen Bridge. In the past the two galaxies were close to each other.
Never the less, there is no evidence for collision between those
galaxies. Andromeda is a supper giant spiral Galaxy.

Based on that, we have to ask the following questions:
1. * * *How close together they were in the past?
2. * * *If they were close enough, why the gravity didn't force them to
collide?
3. * * *If they had been forced to collide, why there is no sign for
collision?
4. * * *Is there any meaning for the fact that Andromeda is like a giant
mother Spiral Galaxy while the Triangulum is like a baby Spiral galaxy.
5. * * *If they are moving in space at Ultra High Speed (Both are facing the
Milky way galaxy), how come that they are only drifting apart?
6. * * *Is it feasible that they were one galaxy in the past???
7. * * *What is the source for this Hydrogen Bridge?
8. * * *Why they are moving in full synchronization and maintain the hydrogen
bridge. (For me it looks like an Umbilical cord…)
9. * * *Is it possible that the galaxies generate a steady stream of Hydrogen
while they are drifting apart?
10. * * Therefore, is it feasible that those spiral galaxies have the
ability to generate New Hydrogen Atoms?
11. * * Hence, isn't it a hint for the Steady state Theory???

--
David Levy

There is a direct relationship between this thread and the following tread: "What is a feasible way to generate an Atom?".
http://www.spacebanter.com/showthread.php?t=196513
In both, we are relating to Spiral galaxy with significant indication of Hydrogen.
Let's start with the following statement about the core of the Milky Way galaxy:
" The bar may be surrounded by a ring called the 5-kpc ring that contains a large fraction of the molecular hydrogen present in the galaxy, as well as most of the Milky Way's star formation activity."
Why the bar contains large fraction of the molecular hydrogen present in the galaxy??? How come??? Where this huge molecular hydrogen come from???
This is a strong indication that the rotational suppermassive black hole in the core of the spiral galaxy has the requested power for Atom Creation activity!!!
This Idea perfectly fits and explain the source of the the hydrogen "bridge" between Andromeda Galaxy and the Triangulum Galaxy.
As both Andromeda and Triangulum are Spiral Galaxies, with rotational suppermassive black hole, they should have the requested power to generate Hydrogen Atoms in their core.
Therefore, as they are drifting apart, they are Releasing Hydrogen and set this kind of bridge!!!
This is a significant element in our understanding of the universe!!!

On Jun 8, 12:48*am, David Levy
wrote:
There is a direct relationship between this thread and the following
tread: "What is a feasible way to generate an Atom?".http://www.spacebanter.com/showthread.php?t=196513
In both, we are relating to Spiral galaxy with significant indication of
Hydrogen.
Let's start with the following statement about the core of the Milky Way
galaxy:
" The bar may be surrounded by a ring called the 5-kpc ring that
contains a large fraction of the molecular hydrogen present in the
galaxy, as well as most of the Milky Way's star formation activity."
Why the bar contains large fraction of the molecular hydrogen present in
the galaxy??? How come??? Where this huge molecular hydrogen come
from???
This is a strong indication that the rotational suppermassive black hole
in the core of the spiral galaxy has the requested power for Atom
Creation activity!!!
This Idea perfectly fits and explain the source of the the hydrogen
"bridge" between Andromeda Galaxy and the Triangulum Galaxy.
As both Andromeda and Triangulum are Spiral Galaxies, with rotational
suppermassive black hole, they should have the requested power to
generate Hydrogen Atoms in their core.
Therefore, as they are drifting apart, they are Releasing Hydrogen and
set this kind of bridge!!!
This is a significant element in our understanding of the universe!!!

--
David Levy

That's a reasonable interpretation, as to where new atoms of hydrogen
could be coming from, as otherwise this universe should be running
itself out of its original cache of spare rogue/nomad hydrogen, as
mostly due to being sequestered in the form of stars and otherwise
nicely converted into the nearly immortal helium.

Thanks Brad Guth[_3_]

That's a reasonable interpretation, as to where new atoms of hydrogen could be coming from, as otherwise this universe should be running itself out of its original cache of spare rogue/nomad hydrogen, as mostly due to being sequestered in the form of stars and otherwise nicely converted into the nearly immortal helium.

This is a real breakthrough for the modern Astronomy science. It should give us better understanding for what we see in space…
Now we need to think what might be the outcome of the Atom creation in the core of spiral galaxy!!!

On Jun 9, 7:32*am, David Levy
wrote:
Thanks Brad Guth[_3_]

*- That's a reasonable interpretation, as to where new atoms of hydrogen
could be coming from, as otherwise this universe should be running
itself out of its original cache of spare rogue/nomad hydrogen, as
mostly due to being sequestered in the form of stars and otherwise
nicely converted into the nearly immortal helium. -

This is a real breakthrough for the modern Astronomy science. It should
give us better understanding for what we see in space…
Now we need to think what might be the outcome of the Atom creation in
the core of spiral galaxy!!!

--
David Levy

If you can only get support from contributor mpc755, would be a good
thing.

Ordinary matter condensed from the aether of what a black hole gives
off, could be the same result as what your interpretation has to
offer.

SS433 could be an example of such an aether outflux giving birth to
hydrogen and helium.