Europe, Russia discuss 'orbital shipyard' plans

On Thu, 21 May 2009 20:02:40 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

:On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:42:56 +0000, Alan Erskine wrote: :
: "Marvin the Martian" wrote in message :
news : What you really want to do is... (wait for it) ... build a :
manufacturing plant on Mars. Once on Mars, you can use Martian :
materials, so you don't have to bring as much mass up. :
: Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to
Mars) : and half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the
Sun, so : solar energy can be used for smelting materials and
industrial : processes.
:
:Smelting is a process that usually involves Carbon, which the moon does
:not have.
:

And which you do not need, since you've got a plethora of free energy
and would like to keep the oxygen anyway.

1) No, you don't have a "plethora" of free energy.
2) Please describe the method you're going to use to convert aluminum
oxide to aluminum + oxygen, with no carbon (for electrodes) and no
hydrogen, and no fluorides. What are you doing? The Deville process? You
need carbonates for that, and again, that means carbon.


:
:You will not be doing any smelting on the moon. :

Horse manure.

By definition, smelting is the process combining carbon and metal oxides,
heating it up, and getting metal and carbon dioxide.

No carbon, no smelting.

:Yes. You get 2X the solar energy on the moon than you do on Mars. :

You get 2X *at best*. It's usually much lower than that. Now further
deduct for that atmosphere you're so proud of, dust, etc.

Irrelevant. Given that there is liquid water found on Mars, it is
possible to tap into the temperature difference on the surface (which is
quite cold) and easily obtain large amounts of "geothermal" energy on
Mars.

One of the wonderful things about this geothermal process, is that it
doesn't violate treaties to bring nuclear power to space and it doesn't
require large amounts of equipment, like solar would.

Marvin the Martian wrote:

:On Thu, 21 May 2009 20:02:40 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: Marvin the Martian wrote:
:
: :On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:42:56 +0000, Alan Erskine wrote: :
: : "Marvin the Martian" wrote in message :
: news : : What you really want to do is... (wait for it) ... build a :
: manufacturing plant on Mars. Once on Mars, you can use Martian :
: materials, so you don't have to bring as much mass up. :
: : Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to
: Mars) : and half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the
: Sun, so : solar energy can be used for smelting materials and
: industrial : processes.
: :
: :Smelting is a process that usually involves Carbon, which the moon does
: :not have.
: :
:
: And which you do not need, since you've got a plethora of free energy
: and would like to keep the oxygen anyway.
:
:1) No, you don't have a "plethora" of free energy.
:

Yeah, you do.

:
:2) Please describe the method you're going to use to convert aluminum
xide to aluminum + oxygen, with no carbon (for electrodes) and no
:hydrogen, and no fluorides. What are you doing? The Deville process? You
:need carbonates for that, and again, that means carbon.
:

Personally, I'm going to use fluorine. Yes, you have to ship some in,
but you can then recycle it essentially forever.

:
: :
: :You will not be doing any smelting on the moon. :
:
: Horse manure.
:
:By definition, smelting is the process combining carbon and metal oxides,
:heating it up, and getting metal and carbon dioxide.
:
:No carbon, no smelting.
:

No, that is not the definition of 'smelting'. That's the process
typically used for it on carbon-rich earth, but other smelting
processes are available.

: :Yes. You get 2X the solar energy on the moon than you do on Mars. :
:
: You get 2X *at best*. It's usually much lower than that. Now further
: deduct for that atmosphere you're so proud of, dust, etc.
:
:Irrelevant. Given that there is liquid water found on Mars, it is
ossible to tap into the temperature difference on the surface (which is
:quite cold) and easily obtain large amounts of "geothermal" energy on
:Mars.
:

You can do the same thing on the Moon. In fact, without the
atmosphere the temperature differences will be even greater between
shaded and unshaded regions.

:One of the wonderful things about this geothermal process, is that it
:doesn't violate treaties to bring nuclear power to space and it doesn't
:require large amounts of equipment, like solar would.

A parabolic mirror is not "large amounts of equipment".

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

"Marvin the Martian" wrote in message
news
One of the wonderful things about this geothermal process, is that it
doesn't violate treaties to bring nuclear power to space and it doesn't
require large amounts of equipment, like solar would.


Umm, what treaties would those be pray tell?



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.