Europe, Russia discuss 'orbital shipyard' plans

On Thu, 21 May 2009 11:07:17 -0700, BradGuth wrote:

On May 20, 9:40Â*am, wrote:
"Space bigwigs in Russia and Europe are working on ambitious plans for
an international space shipyard in orbit above the Earth, according to
reports. The orbital shipyard would be used to assemble manned
spacecraft capable of travelling to the Moon or Mars."

Source:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05...d_discussions/

The one and only viable location for this "orbital shipyard" is within
the Earth-moon L1 (aka Selene L1), because that's where the most
volumetric tonnage can safely coexist with the least amount of applied
energy.


The additional energy to go to L1 is a big negative to go there. L1 is
closer to the moon than earth, so it is also outside the protection of
the van Allen radiation belts.

Marvin the Martian wrote:

On Wed, 20 May 2009 19:43:45 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

It avoids having to develop a true heavy lift capability. You can make
small man rated rockets to lift people; and larger, higher g non-man
rated rockets for freight.

In some drug addled world where rocket costs scale with size and non man
rated boosters sufficiently reliable to trust with irreplacable billion
dollar cargoes are noticeably cheaper per lb of cargo delivered than man
rated rockets, sure.

But we don't live in that world.

D.

If you have a small payload, a tiny Russian Shtil Rocket can get you to
LEO for just $465/kg. Larger rockets DO cost more, like the Zenit 3SL
costs 5.3 k$/kg to LEO.

Compare apples to apples jackass.

(Pity you decided to ridicule facts you don't understand.)

On the contrary - I do understand the facts. The difference between
you and me is that I am sober.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"Jeff Findley" writes:

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...


Derek Lyons wrote:
Yet another brave powerpoint from Russia.


You can see how this is supposed to work, can't you?
Russia will supply the Big Ideas, and the ESA is to fund it. :-D

That's why none of these joint ESA/Russian proposals ever pans out. Even
ATV was mostly ESA. It's like Russia is the idea man, but ESA does all the
work. Luckily for ESA they've wised up and spend the money mostly in
Europe, not Russia.

Like the Soyuz launch pad in Guiana... (first launch there now said to
be later this year).


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On May 21, 11:27*am, Marvin the Martian wrote:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 11:07:17 -0700, BradGuth wrote:
On May 20, 9:40*am, wrote:
"Space bigwigs in Russia and Europe are working on ambitious plans for
an international space shipyard in orbit above the Earth, according to
reports. The orbital shipyard would be used to assemble manned
spacecraft capable of travelling to the Moon or Mars."

Source:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05...d_discussions/

The one and only viable location for this "orbital shipyard" is within
the Earth-moon L1 (aka Selene L1), because that's where the most
volumetric tonnage can safely coexist with the least amount of applied
energy.

The additional energy to go to L1 is a big negative to go there. L1 is
closer to the moon than earth, so it is also outside the protection of
the van Allen radiation belts.

According to all the "right stuff" that you and all others of your
kind have to 100% believe in, there's hardly any radiation to worry
about, near Zero radiation coming off the moon, and oddly it's
actually freezing cold between Earth and our moon.

However, since coasting requires zero energy, and the gravity of Earth
does all the necessary braking in order to sort of glide payloads
effortlessly and park whatever into the Earth-moon L1, therefore I and
the regular laws of physics do not agree with your analogy that's
based upon obfuscation.

~ BG

On May 21, 11:21*am, Marvin the Martian wrote:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 11:15:27 -0700, BradGuth wrote:
By all possible means, you should go to Mars and show us how it's done,
along your common sense brain dead partners Zubrin and Mook that don't
seem to care how many decades and trillions of our hard earned loot it
takes.

*~ BG

I appreciate that you've taken time out of your very busy day posting to
yourself in your threads about planet's losing mass and flaming people
who point out that it's a trivial amount and you're a bit...
unreasonable, to come here and flame me and Dr. Zubrin and Mook, who
actually DOES stuff and you managed to convince to leave the newsgroup
with your constant immature sociopathic tendencies...

If you are paying for this Mars thing yourself, I have no problems
whatsoever. As I said, for Zubrin. Mook and yourself should go for
it, even if it's a one-way ticket to ride.


But it doesn't take trillions to start a Mars colony, and even if it did,
it would be a wonderful investment in humanity. Being that you are not
part of humanity, I can see where that would not concern you.

At Just $150 per every man, woman and child, it's dirt cheap to invest
another trillion that couldn't possibly be better spent according to
Mook, Zubrin and yourself. So, what's holding up your parade, other
than the $150 from each and every man, woman and child?


I was wondering, do you go around hating everyone and flaming them in
real life?

You folks already know exactly what I hate and whom I'll flame (via
returning the favor). Are you suggesting that you're still kind of
dumbfounded about what ****es me off?

Or do you just come to the usenet to act the asshole? Serious.
Either way, you have issues. Even if you are polite in the real world,
the fact that you need to come to the usenet to abuse people... I mean,
what's that about? Do you abuse puppies and kittens too, in the privacy
of your own home? What's up with this constant hateful hostility?

Why are you avoiding the technological issues at hand, by way of
obfuscating whatever doesn't make you a happy camper?

I'm only pointing out that we're kind of bankrupted by those you so
desperately brown-nose and admirer, and to service that kind of
horrific debt is going to take generations willing to make due without
basic necessities.

How do you get off with spending the hard earned loot of others?

I've stated countless times that under my command of our NASA there'd
be a policy offering 50/50 amount of public support for qualified
off-world missions, but obviously that's not good enough for your
greedy (aka all-or-nothing) kind.

~ BG

On Wed, 20 May 2009 21:59:29 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:


:Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to Mars) and
:half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the Sun, so solar
:energy can be used for smelting materials and industrial processes.
:
:The two-week nights are the killer.
:

Start at the poles.

For the mass of the tower (to keep the arrays in sunlight) and the
power lines to the nearest convenient base site, you'd be pretty close
to a small reactor.

Brian

(Derek Lyons) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
:Brian Thorn wrote:
:
::On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:42:56 GMT, "Alan Erskine"
wrote:
::
:: What you really want to do is... (wait for it) ... build a manufacturing
:: plant on Mars. Once on Mars, you can use Martian materials, so you don't
:: have to bring as much mass up.
::
::Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to Mars) and
::half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the Sun, so solar
::energy can be used for smelting materials and industrial processes.
::
::The two-week nights are the killer.
::
:
:Start at the poles.
:
:Where 13 day nights are the killer.
:

I shouldn't have to explain this, Derek, but...

Get an orange. Shine a light on one side. Go to one of the 'poles'.
Draw a line on the orange perpendicular to the 'terminator' passing
through the 'pole'. Stick in a pin just a bit into the light along
that line. Stick another pin on the same line, just into the dark.
Spin the orange along its 'axis'. Observe just how much time all of
BOTH pins are in the dark.

If you did it right, that time is zero...

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Marvin the Martian wrote:

:On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:42:56 +0000, Alan Erskine wrote:
:
: "Marvin the Martian" wrote in message
: news :
: What you really want to do is... (wait for it) ... build a
: manufacturing plant on Mars. Once on Mars, you can use Martian
: materials, so you don't have to bring as much mass up.
:
: Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to Mars)
: and half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the Sun, so
: solar energy can be used for smelting materials and industrial
: processes.
:
:Smelting is a process that usually involves Carbon, which the moon does
:not have.
:

And which you do not need, since you've got a plethora of free energy
and would like to keep the oxygen anyway.

:
:You will not be doing any smelting on the moon.
:

Horse manure.

:
:Yes. You get 2X the solar energy on the moon than you do on Mars.
:

You get 2X *at best*. It's usually much lower than that. Now further
deduct for that atmosphere you're so proud of, dust, etc.

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Fred J. McCall wrote:

(Derek Lyons) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
:Brian Thorn wrote:
:
::On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:42:56 GMT, "Alan Erskine"
wrote:
::
:: What you really want to do is... (wait for it) ... build a manufacturing
:: plant on Mars. Once on Mars, you can use Martian materials, so you don't
:: have to bring as much mass up.
::
::Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to Mars) and
::half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the Sun, so solar
::energy can be used for smelting materials and industrial processes.
::
::The two-week nights are the killer.
::
:
:Start at the poles.
:
:Where 13 day nights are the killer.
:

I shouldn't have to explain this, Derek, but...

Get an orange. Shine a light on one side. Go to one of the 'poles'.
Draw a line on the orange perpendicular to the 'terminator' passing
through the 'pole'. Stick in a pin just a bit into the light along
that line. Stick another pin on the same line, just into the dark.
Spin the orange along its 'axis'. Observe just how much time all of
BOTH pins are in the dark.

If you did it right, that time is zero...

I shouldn't have to explain this to you Fred - but the moon isn't a
perfectly aligned orange. Nor are we building bases on pins hundreds
of kilometers above the orange's surface.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

(Derek Lyons) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
(Derek Lyons) wrote:
:
::Fred J. McCall wrote:
::
::Brian Thorn wrote:
::
:::On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:42:56 GMT, "Alan Erskine"
wrote:
:::
::: What you really want to do is... (wait for it) ... build a manufacturing
::: plant on Mars. Once on Mars, you can use Martian materials, so you don't
::: have to bring as much mass up.
:::
:::Or the Moon - nearer to Earth; no atmosphere at all (compared to Mars) and
:::half the gravity of Mars. Also the Moon's closer to the Sun, so solar
:::energy can be used for smelting materials and industrial processes.
:::
:::The two-week nights are the killer.
:::
::
::Start at the poles.
::
::Where 13 day nights are the killer.
::
:
:I shouldn't have to explain this, Derek, but...
:
:Get an orange. Shine a light on one side. Go to one of the 'poles'.
:Draw a line on the orange perpendicular to the 'terminator' passing
:through the 'pole'. Stick in a pin just a bit into the light along
:that line. Stick another pin on the same line, just into the dark.
:Spin the orange along its 'axis'. Observe just how much time all of
:BOTH pins are in the dark.
:
:If you did it right, that time is zero...
:
:I shouldn't have to explain this to you Fred - but the moon isn't a
erfectly aligned orange. Nor are we building bases on pins hundreds
f kilometers above the orange's surface.
:

Push the pins all the way in, Derek. It's only an orange. The head
of the pin on the surface of the orange is your power array. DOH!

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, Derek - but there's this new
stuff called 'wire' that lets us transmit power over distances. If
you put your two stations around 1.5 degrees apart in the right place
one of them will always be in sunlight. That leaves you transmitting
power around 25 kilometers to your base, which you place in between
the two stations.

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn