Gemini 8 Voice Transcript

I don't know what happened to my earlier post; it's been 10 hours and
still isn't up, so I'm starting a new thread. Here is the relevant
portion of the transcript; what I posted earlier was the PAO transcript
which indicates Mission Control told Neil before LOS that if they lost
attitude control on Agena he was to put command 400 into the computer
which would transfer control back to the CM. He doesn't say here that
he did so:
And it sure sounds like Neil is less-than-calm here. Even Houston had
to tell him to calm down:

07:17:12 CC Gemini VIII, CSQ CAP COM. CornCheck. How do you
read?
07:17:15 P We have serious problems here. We're - we're
tnmbling end over end up here. We're disengaged
from the Agena.
07:17:22 CC Okay. We got your SPACECRAFT FREE indication here.
07:17:26 P Say again.
07:17:28 CC We're showing your SPACECRAFT FREE.
07:17:31 CC What seems to be the problem?
07:17:35 C We're rolling up and we can't turn anything off.
07:17:39 C Continuously increasing in a left roll.
07:17:45 CC Roger.
07:18:22 CC Gemini VIII, CSQ.
07:18:25 C Stand by.
07:18:33 P We have a violent left roll here at the present
time and we can't turn the RCS's off, and we can't
fire it, and we certainly have a roll .... stuck
hand control.
CONFIDENTIAL
76 CONFIDENTIAL
07:18:45 CC Roger.
07:20:05 P Okay. We're regaining control of the Spacecraft
slowly, in RCS DIRECT.
07:20 :ll CC Roger. Copy.
07:21:12 C We're pulsing the RCS pretty slowly here so we
don't control roll right. We're trying to kill
our roll rate.
07:21:19 CC Okay. Fine. Keep at it.
07:22:35 CC VIII, CSQ. How much RCS have you used and are you
just on one ring?
O7:22:41 C That's right. We are on one ring, trying to save
the other ring. We started with two rings, but now
we are on one ring.
07:22:48 CC Roger. What about RCS usage?
07:22:51 C NOW okay. We're down to 1700 pounds right now on
RCS B.
07:22:57 CC Roger.
07:22:58 C We now have about - have about 2350 on A.
07:23:O1 CC Okay. Copy.
07:23:35 CC VIII, CSQ. How are you doing?
07:23:39 C We're working on it.
07:23:40 CC Okay. Relax. Everything's okay.
07:23:51 C The Spacecraft-Agena combination took off. Yaw
and roll, and we had ACS OFF and affirmative 7
hours.
07:24:01 CC Roger. Understand. Can you see the Agena now?
07:24:04 C ... up. We turned the Spacecrsft system on, tried
to stabilize, and in so doing we may have burned
out our lower left thrusters.
CONFIDENTIAL
07:24:13 CC Okay. I copy. Can you - do you have visual
sighting of the Agena right now?
07:24:17 P No. We haven't seen the Agena since we undocked
a little while ago.
07:24:21 CC Okay.
07: 24:34 P The ... - -
07:24:38 P - - ... ACS was shut off and a NAP was achieved.
07:24:42 CC Roger.
HAWAII
07:37:23 CC Gemini VIII, Hawaii.
07:37:24 P Hello Hawaii, Gemini VIII.
07:37:25 CC Roger. We'd like a readout on your switch positions
and OAMS, and on-board reading of your OAMS remaining.
Over.
07:37:30 P Okay. We have 22 percent showing on the gage. We
don't have any yaw or roll control, and cannot regain
control of the yaw thrusters, apparently none
of them. We do have - apparently the pitch thrusters
are operative. And also, we're slowly getting
back to the proper attitude here.
07:38:07 CC Roger. Copy, Gemini, and be advised they're
planning to come into a -3 area. They're looking
into 6 or 7-3 at this time. They would like you to
enter Module 4 and the ATM computer. Over.
07:38:23 C Okay. We'll go ahead and do that.
07:38:27 CC And also get into Retro Attitude as soon as
possible. Over.
07:38:33 C ...
CC Gemini VIII, Hawaii.
07:38:51 C Go ahead.
CONFIDENTIAL
07:38:55 CC Roger. Which systems are you using now? OAMS or
RCS?
07:39:01 C We're on OAMS right now.
07:39:05 CC Roger. And do you have any problem at all with
the RCS control?
07:39:12 C In DIRECT we're okay. We haven't really thoroughly
checked out the RCS. That's the only way we got
it to fire a while ago.
07:39:19 CC Roger. Copy.
07:39:36 CC Gemini VIII, Hawaii.
07:39:37 C Go ahead.
07:39:39 CC Roger. We'd like you to place your Entry C-Band
beacon to CONTINUOUS and Flight advises they personally
prefer 7-3. That will give you approximately
1 1/2 more hours.
07:39:53 C Okay. We do have the Spacecraft under control at
the present time. We're in slowly drifting flightdo
have a slight amount of control. We have - 1550
pounds showing on RCS B and 2400 on A.
07:40:18 CC Say again on B, please.
07: 40: 20 C 1550.
07: 40: 21 CC Copy.
07:42:15 CC Gemini VIII, Hawaii.
07:42:16 C Go ahead.
07:42:21 CC Do you have any idea of the Agena position at
present? Over.
07:42:24 C We saw it about lO minutes ago. It looked to be
a mile or so underneath us.
07:42:32 CC Roger. Copy. Would you place your T/M switch to
REAL- TIME/ACQ-AI D, please?
07:42:35 C REAL- TIME/ACQ-AID.
CONFIDENTIAL
07:42:44 CC Could you give us a sequence of events on just
what happened? Over.
07:42:52 C It happened when we were in Agena-Spacecraft combination
of 0=B0, 180=B0, 0=B0 and we were stabilized
there. We had the Attitude Control Power off in
the Spacecraft, 0A_Attitude Control Power off
and we sent 041 Command to Agena to turn the recorder
on. The Spacecraft-Agena combination
started a violent roll.
ROSE KNOT VICTOR
08:10:44 CC Gemini VIII, REV CAP COM.
08:10:47 C Go ahead RKV, Gemini VIII.
08:10:50 CC Roger. Do you have any idea where the Agena is?
08:10:55 C No, we haven't seen it.
08:10:57 CC Okay.
08:ll:OO CC Over Hawaii, we were having IDS at the time that
you were giving us your switch positions. We
copied as far as you had sent Commmnd O41 RECORDER
ON, and at that time the Spacecraft started to
roll. Would you continue from there, specifically
what your on-board switch positions were and what
you did with it?
08:11:23 C We had Attitude Control POWER on and went to RATE
COMMAND.
08:11:27 CC Roger.
08:11:47 C And when we started to yaw - it seems that it was
the Agena control system.
08:11:53 CC Roger.
08:11:54 C Since we did not hear any of our thrusters fire.
08:11:59 CC Roger.
08:12:03 CC Stand by ...
CONFIDENTIAL
08:12:05 C And we sent ACS OFF and turned the Spacecraft
power on, OA_ power on, and tried to regain control
of the combination.
08:12:15 CC Roger.
08:12:19 C And we were just barely able to hold our own, but
the rates were too excessive for an undocking, so
we continued to attempt to send an ACS OFF-cycle
..=2E. and at the same time we checked our OAMS switch
position.
08:12:34 CC Roger.
08:12:39 C We switched it - we tried to turn our own Spacecraft
Control System off and the combination continued
to wind up, so we had to go back on before
the rates became intolerable.
08:12:53 CC Roger.
08:13:00 C After we got the rates down to a point where we
felt we could safely undock, we did so, and maneuvered
away from the Agena at several feet per
second as quickly as possible. We had been
watching our propellant quantity go down from 50
to below 30 percent. After turning the OAMS off
and still in bias power and everything - motor
valves off, we were still rolling; we ectivated
the RCS. Did not have any ACME, and we regained
control of the Spacecraft in DIRECT, slowly.
08:13: 51 CC Roger.
08:13:55 C Then after getting stabilized, we checked out our
whole Thrust Control System and found that we had
no yaw or roll control - or we had no yaw control
of the yaw thrusters since our roll was in the yaw
jets, and after that - -
08:14:15 P ACS was really going.
C - - we had - vision; we could see the ACS thrusters
firing on the Agena when we had ACS off, so we
felt that something was definitely wrong.
08:14: 29 CC Roger.
CONFIDENTIAL
14:30 C After checking the Spacecraft systems we found
Thruster Number 8 apparently failed OPEN at the
present time and this could have been true at the
time of the incident, although we can't - cannot
verify that at this time.
08:14:44 CC Roger. Stand by. We'll update that new TR time.
08:14: 53 P Got it.
08:14:54 CC Okay. And I'd also like to send your Load.
08:15: O0 P Reentry Load.
08:15:04 P DCS light on.
08:15: 05 CC The ATM okay?
08:15:O6 P ATM has loaded Module 4A snd verified 4A.
08:15:09 C Roger ...
08:15:10 CC Roger. We're having LOS. We haven't updated your
Load and TR.
08:15:16 C Okay.
08:15:17 CC Okay. Did he have that - -
08:15:18 C What's the TR?
O8:15:19 CC TR time is for Area 7-3, which is approximately
an hour and 15 minutes from now.
08:15: 29 C What 's our next AOS?
08:15:33 CC Next AOS should be CSQ.
08:15:36 P Give us a time for that, please.
08:15:51 P 8:52, TR is at 9 - -
08:15:53 CC Roger. Should be 8 hours, 52 minutes - 8 hours,
52 minutes.
08:16: OO P Okay. Thank you.
CONFIDENTIAL

wrote:
I don't know what happened to my earlier post; it's been 10 hours and
still isn't up, so I'm starting a new thread. Here is the relevant
portion of the transcript; what I posted earlier was the PAO
transcript
which indicates Mission Control told Neil before LOS that if they
lost
attitude control on Agena he was to put command 400 into the computer
which would transfer control back to the CM. He doesn't say here
that
he did so:
And it sure sounds like Neil is less-than-calm here. Even Houston
had
to tell him to calm down:

[snip]

07:22:35 CC VIII, CSQ. How much RCS have you used and are you
just on one ring?
O7:22:41 C That's right. We are on one ring, trying to save
the other ring. We started with two rings, but now
we are on one ring.
07:22:48 CC Roger. What about RCS usage?
07:22:51 C NOW okay. We're down to 1700 pounds right now on
RCS B.
07:22:57 CC Roger.
07:22:58 C We now have about - have about 2350 on A.
07:23:O1 CC Okay. Copy.
07:23:35 CC VIII, CSQ. How are you doing?
07:23:39 C We're working on it.
07:23:40 CC Okay. Relax. Everything's okay.
07:23:51 C The Spacecraft-Agena combination took off. Yaw
and roll, and we had ACS OFF and affirmative 7
hours.
07:24:01 CC Roger. Understand. Can you see the Agena now?
07:24:04 C ... up. We turned the Spacecrsft system on, tried
to stabilize, and in so doing we may have burned
out our lower left thrusters.
[snip]

Alright. So what's your point?

-Mark Martin

My point is, and I made it once before but just didn't have the
transcript available: It appears Neil did not have to cut the Agena
loose. I was told that by a pilot a few weeks ago, but I only obtained
the transcript this past week. Further, even after he cut Agena, his
actions are panicky. Neil jumped the gun on TWO fronts, the Agena AND
firing up the RCS. Both actions cost the mission.

wrote:
My point is, and I made it once before but just didn't have the
transcript available: It appears Neil did not have to cut the Agena
loose. I was told that by a pilot a few weeks ago, but I only
obtained
the transcript this past week. Further, even after he cut Agena, his
actions are panicky. Neil jumped the gun on TWO fronts, the Agena
AND
firing up the RCS. Both actions cost the mission.

It's already been pointed out to you abundantly that Armstrong had to
make a snap decision in a life vs death situation, so I won't beat that
dead horse again. But do you know what the "mission" was of the whole
Gemini program? It was to test the abilities of human beings to work
effectively under spaceflight conditions. It was practice for going to
the Moon just a few years later. Each flight had a mission plan set up
way before launch. The crews trained for the plan. But gremlins don't
give a crap about the plan. Things go wrong, and dealing with the
unexpected was an integral part of the Gemini program. The plan for
Gemini 8 couldn't be fulfilled. But the larger plan of the whole
program was.

-Mark Martin

On 12 Jan 2005 19:42:33 -0800, "
wrote:

My point is, and I made it once before but just didn't have the
transcript available: It appears Neil did not have to cut the Agena
loose. I was told that by a pilot a few weeks ago, but I only obtained
the transcript this past week. Further, even after he cut Agena, his
actions are panicky. Neil jumped the gun on TWO fronts, the Agena AND
firing up the RCS. Both actions cost the mission.

Ok you're in a rapidly spinning spacecraft, getting tunnel vision and
about to black out, which if you do, you're dead. You have to make a
snap decision based on sketchy and incomplete data. In that case Neil
made the correct decision.

Today we having the luxury of hind-sight, a detailed understanding of
the problem, and 40 years to have determined a more optimum solution.

You have a lot to learn about operating in crisis situations

Kelly McDonald

Kelly McDonald kellymcdonald@ wrote:

You have a lot to learn about operating in crisis situations

Kelly,

PLEASE don't feed the troll. All it is trying to do is get a response
from someone. Ignore it, and it will eventually go away.

--
Dave Michelson

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:37:02 -0500, Kelly McDonald
wrote:

You have a lot to learn about operating in crisis situations

....Based on her rantings and tirades, more than likely she actually
faced such a situation. Sadly, she couldn't cope with it, and whatever
happened to her obviously unhinged her.

Of course, the real question is, was it her father, her uncle or a
cousin?

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

OM wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:37:02 -0500, Kelly McDonald
wrote:

You have a lot to learn about operating in crisis situations

...Based on her rantings and tirades, more than likely she actually
faced such a situation. Sadly, she couldn't cope with it, and whatever
happened to her obviously unhinged her.

Of course, the real question is, was it her father, her uncle or a
cousin?

Why do you assume those were three different people?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God"

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:31:29 +0000 (UTC), "Gordon Davie"
wrote:

OM wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:37:02 -0500, Kelly McDonald
wrote:

You have a lot to learn about operating in crisis situations

...Based on her rantings and tirades, more than likely she actually
faced such a situation. Sadly, she couldn't cope with it, and whatever
happened to her obviously unhinged her.

Of course, the real question is, was it her father, her uncle or a
cousin?

Why do you assume those were three different people?

....I was being nice for a change and giving the troll a little slack.
I'll know better next time.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr