The Collins factor

[Doug...]

OK, here's an Apollo what-if that's been discussed somewhat, but I
figured I would try and state it clearly.

What if Mike Collins had never suffered from a bad neck vertebrae and
never been replaced on his original Apollo crew? The assumption is that
*everything* else had occurred as it really did -- Apollo 13 and all.

1) Apollo 8 would have been crewed by Borman, Anders and Collins.

2) The Apollo 10 backup crew would have been Cooper, Eisele and Haise.
Fred was in line just ahead of Ed Mitchell, and if he had not been
pressed into service on the Apollo 8 backup crew, he would have been on
the next available crew, which would have been the Apollo 10 backup crew.

3) Apollo 11 would have been flown by Armstrong, Aldrin and Lovell.

4) While Collins was able to turn Deke down when approached for the
backup CDR job on Apollo 14, I doubt Mike would have been able to turn
Deke down if offered the job of backing up Neil Armstrong on Apollo 11.
So, the backup crew for Apollo 11 would likely have been Collins, Anders
and Mitchell. Anders would have bowed out late in the game, with Ken
Mattingly becoming the de-facto backup CMP by the time of the flight.

5) Jim Lovell would have been offered the backup CDR slot on Apollo 14.
Unlike Collins, Lovell would have taken the job.

6) Apollo 13 would probably have been flown by Collins, Swigert and
Mitchell. Mattingly would have ended up getting bumped by the measles
scare, and remember, Haise would have been the slot Mitchell occupied in
our timeline. (I'm thinking that, after backing up Armstrong on Apollo
11, Collins would have been willing to go on through prime crew training
for his own landing mission. And would have ended up getting screwed
over by the luck of the draw, and by George Mueller insisting that Al
Shepard needed more training time than he would get by flying 13.)

7) Apollo 14 would have been flown by Shepard, Roosa and Haise. Fred
would have gotten his moonwalk.

8) Apollo 17 would have been flown by Lovell, Schmitt and Evans. Gene
Cernan, in insisting upon trying for his own command, would have gambled
away his only chance at walking on the moon.

So, none of the really important milestones would have changed. But Jim
Lovell would have been the last guy to walk on the moon, and Gene Cernan
would have been lucky to get a Skylab seat. Or maybe command of ASTP, a
far cry from the landing mission he wanted.

I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a
tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13. Truthfully, I REALLY
wish that things had gone the way they actually did, up to where Collins
turned Deke down. I would have LOVED to have read Collins' descriptions
of commanding Apollo 17. He is the best writer of all of the Apollo
astronauts, and would have really brought the experience home.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[G.Beat]

"Doug..." > wrote in message
...
> OK, here's an Apollo what-if that's been discussed somewhat, but I
> figured I would try and state it clearly.
>
> What if Mike Collins had never suffered from a bad neck vertebrae and
> never been replaced on his original Apollo crew? The assumption is that
> *everything* else had occurred as it really did -- Apollo 13 and all.
>
> 6) Apollo 13 would probably have been flown by Collins, Swigert and
> Mitchell. Mattingly would have ended up getting bumped by the measles
> scare, and remember, Haise would have been the slot Mitchell occupied in
> our timeline. (I'm thinking that, after backing up Armstrong on Apollo
> 11, Collins would have been willing to go on through prime crew training
> for his own landing mission. And would have ended up getting screwed
> over by the luck of the draw, and by George Mueller insisting that Al
> Shepard needed more training time than he would get by flying 13.)

Okay, if Mike Collins was the Commander for Apollo 13 - then he would have
the
opportunity to veto the flight - based on 2 criteria:
Mattingly measles AND changeout of the Oxygen #2 tank in the Service Module
based on the fill/drain problem (the tank that exploded in route).
Jim Lovell talks about this in his book "Lost Moon" (Apollo 13).

It really comes down to what would Mike have accepted for risk?
I think an interesting view is that Mike served under 2 CDRs -
John Young on Gemini 10 and Borman on Apollo 8 - that were different in
their
approaches to risk than other CDR.

> I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a
> tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13. Truthfully, I REALLY
> wish that things had gone the way they actually did, up to where Collins
> turned Deke down. I would have LOVED to have read Collins' descriptions
> of commanding Apollo 17. He is the best writer of all of the Apollo
> astronauts, and would have really brought the experience home.

IF Mike would have retired after Apollo 13 (as Lovell did),
is another interesting thread.

GB
--
DO NOT use Reply.
Only reply through ARRL forwarding service to W9GB

> Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
> thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[MasterShrink]

>4) While Collins was able to turn Deke down when approached for the
>backup CDR job on Apollo 14, I doubt Mike would have been able to turn
>Deke down if offered the job of backing up Neil Armstrong on Apollo 11.

I hadn't considered this one...if Collins had flown Apollo 8, he was probably
the best qualified guy to land the backup slot on Apollo 11 and that would be a
tough job to turn down. What other alternatives could there have been? Jim
McDivitt or Dave Scott possibly?

>8) Apollo 17 would have been flown by Lovell, Schmitt and Evans. Gene
>Cernan, in insisting upon trying for his own command, would have gambled
>away his only chance at walking on the moon.

I dunno if this is the case here. Cernan admits in his own book that had he
known that Michael Collins was Slayton's first choice for backing up 14 and
commanding 17 he would have re-considered his odds.

Cernan probably should have known he'd have pretty much no chance of being
selected over Jim Lovell (on experience, seniority, etc).

-A.L.

[Jonathan Silverlight]

In message >, Doug...
> writes
>
>I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a
>tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13.

I'm probably missing the point, but would it have been any more tough
than being the forgotten man of the first moon landing flight?
--
"Roads in space for rockets to travel....four-dimensional roads, curving with
relativity"
Mail to jsilverlight AT merseia.fsnet.co.uk is welcome.
Or visit Jonathan's Space Site http://www.merseia.fsnet.co.uk

[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
> >4) While Collins was able to turn Deke down when approached for the
> >backup CDR job on Apollo 14, I doubt Mike would have been able to turn
> >Deke down if offered the job of backing up Neil Armstrong on Apollo 11.
>
> I hadn't considered this one...if Collins had flown Apollo 8, he was probably
> the best qualified guy to land the backup slot on Apollo 11 and that would be a
> tough job to turn down. What other alternatives could there have been? Jim
> McDivitt or Dave Scott possibly?

Not enough time. Apollo 11 began its training cycle in January of 1969.
The only crews with Apollo flight experience at that point were the
Apollo 7 and 8 crews. I seriously doubt that Deke was going to offer the
BCDR slot on the first landing flight to Eisele, Cunningham or Anders,
and Schirra and Borman were retired by the time the crew decisions were
made. Had Collins flown on Apollo 8, he would have been the *only* good
choice for Apollo 11 BCDR, I think. Especially the way Deke seemed to
have done things.

Had Collins turned down the Apollo 11 BCDR job, the *only* other person I
can imagine that Deke could have tapped for the job would have been Al
Shepard. Al was back on flight status by then, and while Washington
migft have balked, and Shepard might have agitated against serving on a
backup crew, it's the only other option I can see Deke considering.

But I don't think Mike would have turned that job down. Deke would have
pushed on him harder than he did for the Apollo 14 BCDR job, since it's
the first landing flight we're talking about, here. And that is the kind
of position that it's just hard to turn down -- especially if your boss,
whom you respect highly, is telling you that your country NEEDS you to do
the job.

> >8) Apollo 17 would have been flown by Lovell, Schmitt and Evans. Gene
> >Cernan, in insisting upon trying for his own command, would have gambled
> >away his only chance at walking on the moon.
>
> I dunno if this is the case here. Cernan admits in his own book that had he
> known that Michael Collins was Slayton's first choice for backing up 14 and
> commanding 17 he would have re-considered his odds.
>
> Cernan probably should have known he'd have pretty much no chance of being
> selected over Jim Lovell (on experience, seniority, etc).

True -- but since Geno had no clue that Deke was considering others over
him, since his decision was made when the program was still planned to
continue on to Apollo 20, and since Geno's ego was big enough that he
REALLY thought that he was too good to fly right seat again, I really
don't think he would have accepted the Apollo 13 BLMP position. He would
have held out for command of Apollo 18, 19 or 20. (Note that Geno wasn't
the only guy who refused an LMP slot -- Jim McDivitt was offered the LMP
slot on Shepard's crew, and he not only turned it down, he was insulted
by the offer.)

And so, Geno would have ended up in Dick Gordon's position, at best --
watching his mission go away due to budget cuts. Or, at worst, would
never even have been offered a BCDR slot. (My best guess is that, if the
program had extended out to Apollo 19 or 20 and if Collins had accepted
the Apollo 14 BCDR slot, the best shot Geno had would have been Apollo 16
BCDR, rotating up to Apollo 19 CDR. And since that flight would likely
never have occurred, Geno would have been SOL.)

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
> In message >, Doug...
> > writes
> >
> >I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a
> >tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13.
>
> I'm probably missing the point, but would it have been any more tough
> than being the forgotten man of the first moon landing flight?

Ah, but Mike was completely satisfied with his seat on Apollo 11. And
the flight went off exactly as planned. That has to be a lot more
satisfying than training to land on the moon and then struggling just to
survive, watching the moon slip through your fingers while your crippled
ship sailed on by, no longer capable of delivering you to your
destination.)

I also say that Apollo 13 would have been difficult for Collins because
he was the self-avowed least mechanically inclined guy in the astronaut
corps. It would be that much harder for him to have to deal with a
spacecraft that suddenly went dead 205,000 miles away from home...

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[Derek Lyons]

Doug... > wrote:
>But I don't think Mike would have turned that job down. Deke would have
>pushed on him harder than he did for the Apollo 14 BCDR job, since it's
>the first landing flight we're talking about, here.

Nit: First landing *attempt*. That it would in fact be the first
landing was not known until the contact light lit.

D.
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[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
> Doug... > wrote:
> >But I don't think Mike would have turned that job down. Deke would have
> >pushed on him harder than he did for the Apollo 14 BCDR job, since it's
> >the first landing flight we're talking about, here.
>
> Nit: First landing *attempt*. That it would in fact be the first
> landing was not known until the contact light lit.

Very true. But even as the first landing attempt, Apollo 11 was from the
start acknowledged as "it," the flight every guy in the corps had been
angling for since Kennedy threw down the gauntlet. Everyone knew that
Apollos 9 and 10 might have failed, requiring a repeat, and everyone knew
that there was no guarantee that the first landing attempt would succeed.
But that group of egos was big enough that anyone who had *any* chance of
flying Apollo 11 was certain that, if it was *not* the first landing, it
wouldn't fail because *he* screwed up.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[David Higgins]

Homer J. Fong wrote:

> Are there any other astronauts aside from Mike Collins that don't use
> ghostwriters to assist them with their books? Every book he writes, he
> does so on his own, whereas others always have "With Joe Schmo"
> attached to the credits.

One of the "Schmo"s posts here -- perhaps he can answer
this question -- assuming he doesn't mind being categorized
as a "Schmo". :-)

[Ward C. Douglas]

"Doug..." > wrote in message
...

> Very true. But even as the first landing attempt, Apollo 11 was from the
> start acknowledged as "it," the flight every guy in the corps had been
> angling for since Kennedy threw down the gauntlet. Everyone knew that
> Apollos 9 and 10 might have failed, requiring a repeat, and everyone knew
> that there was no guarantee that the first landing attempt would succeed.
> But that group of egos was big enough that anyone who had *any* chance of
> flying Apollo 11 was certain that, if it was *not* the first landing, it
> wouldn't fail because *he* screwed up.
>

I've always understood that prior to 9 & 10s success most of the guys were
looking at 12 as the highly likely first landing attempt. Almost everybody
believed that 8, 9 and 10 would have enough unfulfilled objectives to make
11 another rehearsal.

v/r
Ward

[Doug...]

In article <unB_a.15095$cf.921@lakeread04>, says...
> "Doug..." > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Very true. But even as the first landing attempt, Apollo 11 was from the
> > start acknowledged as "it," the flight every guy in the corps had been
> > angling for since Kennedy threw down the gauntlet. Everyone knew that
> > Apollos 9 and 10 might have failed, requiring a repeat, and everyone knew
> > that there was no guarantee that the first landing attempt would succeed.
> > But that group of egos was big enough that anyone who had *any* chance of
> > flying Apollo 11 was certain that, if it was *not* the first landing, it
> > wouldn't fail because *he* screwed up.
> >
>
> I've always understood that prior to 9 & 10s success most of the guys were
> looking at 12 as the highly likely first landing attempt. Almost everybody
> believed that 8, 9 and 10 would have enough unfulfilled objectives to make
> 11 another rehearsal.

Maybe it was just because they *had* to, from an emotional standpoint,
but at least the crew of Apollo 11 felt that they were going to get a
shot at it. At the time they were assigned the flight, January '69,
Collins felt that Apollo 10 had a 10% chance to attempt the first
landing, Apollo 11 a 50% chance, and Apollo 12 or beyond a 40% chance.
So even with his bet-hedging, Collins felt that Apollo 11 had a better
chance than any of the other flights at making the first landing attempt.

I think that after Apollo 9 succeeded, most people felt that 11 was going
to make the first attempt. Hell, there was talk at that point of giving
Stafford and his crew the first shot, a far cry from a mindset that
Apollo 10 *had* to succeed in its rehearsal before 11 was allowed to try
to land.

I can't speak for the corps, though, since I've only met a couple of the
guys involved and never had significant discussions with them about it.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[MasterShrink]

>> I'm probably missing the point, but would it have been any more tough
>> than being the forgotten man of the first moon landing flight?
>
>Ah, but Mike was completely satisfied with his seat on Apollo 11. And
>the flight went off exactly as planned.

I might have missed something, but in his book, he did seem a shade
disappointed in losing out on the LMP slot he had on the early Apollo 205
backup crew of Borman, Stafford and Collins. He stated the duties of the CMP
were the ones he was least interested in.

Though I I'd agree to say he was more than happy with his role on Apollo 11.

-A.L.

[MasterShrink]

>Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
>presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
>emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
>crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
>fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
>

::raises hand::

Um...having never heard of this book may I ask what the title is and if it's
still easily avaiable?

-A.L.

[Kevin Willoughby]

Doug... said:
> Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
> presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
> emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
> crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
> fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.

I was very impressed by his comments on the psychological issues that
the Mars crew might run into. If I were in a truly cynical mood, I'd
note that Collins understood the results from Salut and Mir better than
NASA did while planning Shuttle/MIR and ISS.
--
Kevin Willoughby

We'd spend the remaining time trying to fix the engine.
-- Neil Armstrong

[Andre Lieven]

MasterShrink ) writes:
>>Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
>>presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
>>emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
>>crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
>>fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
>
> ::raises hand::
>
> Um...having never heard of this book may I ask what the title is and if
> it's still easily avaiable?

Well, since you have my initials (<g>), I'll tell you.

Its Michael Collin's " Mission To Mars; An Astronaut's Vision
Of Our Future In Space ", 1990, Grove Weidenfeld, $22.50 US
cover price ( hard cover ), ISBN 0-8021-1160-2.

Have a look on some book search sites, such as bookfinder.com,
and the like. Mine, I've had for some years. So, I can't say what
it's current availability and pricing would be.

> -A.L.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
> >> I'm probably missing the point, but would it have been any more tough
> >> than being the forgotten man of the first moon landing flight?
> >
> >Ah, but Mike was completely satisfied with his seat on Apollo 11. And
> >the flight went off exactly as planned.
>
> I might have missed something, but in his book, he did seem a shade
> disappointed in losing out on the LMP slot he had on the early Apollo 205
> backup crew of Borman, Stafford and Collins. He stated the duties of the CMP
> were the ones he was least interested in.

Very true. From a personal standpoint, Collins was far more interested
in flying the hot little ships than the big multiengine planes long
before he became an astronaut. The LM flew like a snappy little fighter,
while the CSM flew like a barge (at least, it did when you were trying to
conserve fuel, which was the first 90% of most missions). And you can
tell by the way Collins referred to the CSM -- the "collection of leaky
plumbing," the "orbiting restroom," that kind of thing -- that he wasn't
in love with that particular spacecraft.

So, from a personal piloting standpoint, Mike would probably have *much*
preferred to fly the LM. But from a *mission* standpoint, he was so
aware of the importance of the CM Pilot that he was, in fact, satisfied
to have been chosen to perform the role. Deke groomed his future
commanders in CMP slots. He put the second most senior astronaut on a
crew in that role, and insisted that, until the first few landings had
been accomplished, that a CMP be an experienced astronaut with rendezvous
experience. It was an honor and a feather in one's cap to be named a CMP
in the early days of Apollo.

Also, remember the responsibility invested in the CMP -- he served as the
commander and sole pilot of his vehicle for important phases of the
mission, and *had* to train to be the mission's sole survivor, if
necessary. He was acutely aware of that, too -- he wrote (quoting from
memory) that, if his crewmates died in their landing attempt or failed
to rise successfully from the lunar surface, "I am not going to commit
suicide; I am coming home, forthwith, but I will be a marked man for life
and I know it. Almost better not to have the option I enjoy." Such
responsibility is nearly as great as that invested in the CDR -- and
while it could be burdensome, it was still something that, when
accomplished successfully, can give a man a GREAT deal of satisfaction.

> Though I I'd agree to say he was more than happy with his role on Apollo 11.

I think his quote was "I would be a fool to say that I had the best seat
on the flight, but I can say with equanimity that I was satisfied with
it."

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
> >Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
> >presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
> >emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
> >crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
> >fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
> >
>
> ::raises hand::
>
> Um...having never heard of this book may I ask what the title is and if it's
> still easily avaiable?

It's "Mission to Mars - An Astronaut's Vision of our Future in Space,"
published in 1990 by Grove Weidenfield. (It's currently out of print,
however.) Here are a couple of at least semi-helpful web links (mind
the word wrap):

http://www.chris-winter.com/SpaceVis/M_Collins/mcollins.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802111602/collectspace/103-
9958063-2573464

It's a truly excellent book. In the first half, he very clearly and
simply describes his own variations on what sounds a lot like the NASA
Mars reference mission (a mission plan that was developed as a "talking
document" to which other similar plans could be compared against some
actual engineering research). That part is imaginative non-fiction. The
second part describes, in a semi-fictional account, the actual flight of
such a mission. Collins creates believable characters as his crew,
places them in a believable mission and set of spacecraft, and has them
face believable (even expectable) problems and issues.

His Mars mission plan uses a Venus gravity assist to get the vehicle to
Mars on a minimum-energy trajectory, and he documents the crew's
reactions to a mission with an early "high point" of the Venus fly-by,
followed by a very long (six month) climb up to Mars. He discusses how
much of the mission will be spent in simulations of later mission phases.
He shows how the crew's medical condition upon Mars arrival can change
plans and even crew roles. He even explores the varying feelings the
crew (three married couples of various nationalities, if I recall
correctly) develop for each other as the mission proceeds and different
situations force unplanned-for and unanticipated stresses on them.

He includes some very believable malfunctions, too. Instead of the
ubiquitous meteor shower or solar flare threatening the success of the
mission, he has one of the bathrooms break down and compromise one of the
life support systems. It doesn't end up killing anyone, but it makes
life a lot harder than it needs to be -- just the kind of thing that our
experiences on Mir and ISS would lead us to expect on such an
undertaking.

If you can find it (and I note that Amazon does have copies available),
it is an excellent read and well worth the purchase.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
> Doug... said:
> > Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
> > presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
> > emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
> > crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
> > fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
>
> I was very impressed by his comments on the psychological issues that
> the Mars crew might run into. If I were in a truly cynical mood, I'd
> note that Collins understood the results from Salut and Mir better than
> NASA did while planning Shuttle/MIR and ISS.

Oh, totally agreed. For example, he presciently describes what would
happen if a crewmember had a close parent die during a mission. This
happened more than once on Mir -- I can cite one instance during Michael
Foale's Mir mission when either Tsibliev or Lazutkin (I can't remember
which off the top of my head) lost his mother and went into withdrawal
from any contact with the rest of the crew (and from his own duties) for
several days. Collins has this happen on the way home from Mars, to an
extent that *does* threaten the mission. I found it an extraordinarily
astute observation.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

[Derek Lyons]

Doug... > wrote:
>Oh, totally agreed. For example, he presciently describes what would
>happen if a crewmember had a close parent die during a mission. This
>happened more than once on Mir -- I can cite one instance during Michael
>Foale's Mir mission when either Tsibliev or Lazutkin (I can't remember
>which off the top of my head) lost his mother and went into withdrawal
>from any contact with the rest of the crew (and from his own duties) for
>several days. Collins has this happen on the way home from Mars, to an
>extent that *does* threaten the mission. I found it an extraordinarily
>astute observation.

Presciently? More likely a retelling of something he experienced in
the military.

It's a medium common experience for someone in a unit to lose someone
close, either to death or to Dear John, while the unit is deployed.
Frequently that someone does behave in various abberant ways for at
least a little while.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

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[Rusty Barton]

On 14 Aug 2003 04:08:27 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:

>MasterShrink ) writes:
>>>Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
>>>presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
>>>emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
>>>crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
>>>fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
>>
>> ::raises hand::
>>
>> Um...having never heard of this book may I ask what the title is and if
>> it's still easily avaiable?
>
>Well, since you have my initials (<g>), I'll tell you.
>
>Its Michael Collin's " Mission To Mars; An Astronaut's Vision
>Of Our Future In Space ", 1990, Grove Weidenfeld, $22.50 US
>cover price ( hard cover ), ISBN 0-8021-1160-2.
>
>Have a look on some book search sites, such as bookfinder.com,
>and the like. Mine, I've had for some years. So, I can't say what
>it's current availability and pricing would be.
>

80¢, hardcover, used, at Amazon.com. 106 are available.



--
Rusty Barton - Antelope, California |"I'm moving to Mars next week,
E-mail - | so if you have any boxes...."
Visit my Titan I ICBM website at: | - Steven Wright
http://www.geocities.com/titan_1_missile |

[OM]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:47:30 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:

>It's a medium common experience for someone in a unit to lose someone
>close, either to death or to Dear John, while the unit is deployed.
>Frequently that someone does behave in various abberant ways for at
>least a little while.

....Especially if the death was expected and the CO refused to allow
emergency leave when the request was within reason. I've encountered
officers who were jerks like that, and have heard of several who've
gotten their comeuppance over it too.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

[Andrew Gray]

In article >, Rusty Barton wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2003 04:08:27 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
> wrote:
>
>>MasterShrink ) writes:
>>>>Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
>>>>presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
>>>>emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
>>>>crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
>>>>fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
>>>
>>> ::raises hand::
>>>
>>> Um...having never heard of this book may I ask what the title is and if
>>> it's still easily avaiable?
>>
>>Well, since you have my initials (<g>), I'll tell you.
>>
>>Its Michael Collin's " Mission To Mars; An Astronaut's Vision
>>Of Our Future In Space ", 1990, Grove Weidenfeld, $22.50 US
>>cover price ( hard cover ), ISBN 0-8021-1160-2.
>>
>>Have a look on some book search sites, such as bookfinder.com,
>>and the like. Mine, I've had for some years. So, I can't say what
>>it's current availability and pricing would be.
>>
>
> 80¢, hardcover, used, at Amazon.com. 106 are available.

Amazon UK has a few copies, most of which seem to be imported from the
US (and I'm not wanting to pay £12 for one)

I did, however, find this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0452006554/

Planning on writing an update, Mr O? <g>

--
-Andrew Gray

[Jonathan Silverlight]

In message >, Doug...
> writes
>In article >,
says...
>> Doug... said:
>> > Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done. It
>> > presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical faults, medical
>> > emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the death of one of the
>> > crew member's parents. It was the most realistic portrayal of a
>> > fictional mission I have ever read, bar none.
>>
>> I was very impressed by his comments on the psychological issues that
>> the Mars crew might run into. If I were in a truly cynical mood, I'd
>> note that Collins understood the results from Salut and Mir better than
>> NASA did while planning Shuttle/MIR and ISS.
>
>Oh, totally agreed. For example, he presciently describes what would
>happen if a crewmember had a close parent die during a mission. This
>happened more than once on Mir -- I can cite one instance during Michael
>Foale's Mir mission when either Tsibliev or Lazutkin (I can't remember
>which off the top of my head) lost his mother and went into withdrawal
>from any contact with the rest of the crew (and from his own duties) for
>several days. Collins has this happen on the way home from Mars, to an
>extent that *does* threaten the mission. I found it an extraordinarily
>astute observation.
>
Sorry about the "thread drift", but what's the group's opinions of the
episode of "The Cape" where that happens?
--
"Roads in space for rockets to travel....four-dimensional roads, curving with
relativity"
Mail to jsilverlight AT merseia.fsnet.co.uk is welcome.
Or visit Jonathan's Space Site http://www.merseia.fsnet.co.uk

[Gordon Davie]

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
> In message >, Doug...
> > writes
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>> Doug... said:
>>>> Collins' book on a manned Mars mission was *extremely* well done.
>>>> It presented a Mars mission that had to deal with technical
>>>> faults, medical emergencies, and even the emotional impact of the
>>>> death of one of the crew member's parents. It was the most
>>>> realistic portrayal of a fictional mission I have ever read, bar
>>>> none.
>>>
>>> I was very impressed by his comments on the psychological issues
>>> that
>>> the Mars crew might run into. If I were in a truly cynical mood, I'd
>>> note that Collins understood the results from Salut and Mir better
>>> than NASA did while planning Shuttle/MIR and ISS.
>>
>> Oh, totally agreed. For example, he presciently describes what would
>> happen if a crewmember had a close parent die during a mission. This
>> happened more than once on Mir -- I can cite one instance during
>> Michael Foale's Mir mission when either Tsibliev or Lazutkin (I
>> can't remember which off the top of my head) lost his mother and
>> went into withdrawal
>> from any contact with the rest of the crew (and from his own duties)
>> for several days. Collins has this happen on the way home from
>> Mars, to an extent that *does* threaten the mission. I found it an
>> extraordinarily astute observation.
>>
> Sorry about the "thread drift", but what's the group's opinions of the
> episode of "The Cape" where that happens?

Not quite the same thing - in the episode the astronaut isn't told of his
wife's death until after the mission, specifically so that his performance
wouldn't be affected.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God"

[Henry Spencer]

I wrote:
>Now mind you, the *extent* of the ghostwriting on the others varies a lot.
>At one extreme, "Deke!" is very clearly Deke Slayton talking, with Michael
>Cassutt typing, organizing, and polishing...

Forgot to add: A useful (although not infallible) rule of thumb is that
the harder the publisher tries to pretend that the co-author doesn't
exist, the less the ostensible primary author had to do with the book.
When the co-author's name isn't even on the cover, that's a bad sign.
--
MOST launched 1015 EDT 30 June, separated 1046, | Henry Spencer
first ground-station pass 1651, all nominal! |

[Dale]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:31:31 GMT, (Henry Spencer) wrote:

>I wrote:
>>Now mind you, the *extent* of the ghostwriting on the others varies a lot.
>>At one extreme, "Deke!" is very clearly Deke Slayton talking, with Michael
>>Cassutt typing, organizing, and polishing...
>
>Forgot to add: A useful (although not infallible) rule of thumb is that
>the harder the publisher tries to pretend that the co-author doesn't
>exist, the less the ostensible primary author had to do with the book.
>When the co-author's name isn't even on the cover, that's a bad sign.

And perhaps it would be good to mention that real "ghostwriters" don't
get their name on the cover, nor between them...

Dale

Currently ghostwriting Britney Spears' autobiography- "Who Cares?" :)

[John]

> Are there any other astronauts aside from Mike Collins that don't use
> ghostwriters to assist them with their books? Every book he writes, he
> does so on his own, whereas others always have "With Joe Schmo"
> attached to the credits.


I don't think Jerry Linenger used a ghost writer. Or at least didn't credit one.

[OM]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:44:48 -0700, Dale > wrote:

>Currently ghostwriting Britney Spears' autobiography- "Who Cares?" :)

....And I'm directing her "Britney Demonstrates The Kama Sutra" tape
too. I was wondering who'd nailed the bio job :-P


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr