A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Policy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Reused Dragons to start flying this year



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 4th 17, 03:43 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,483
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year


SpaceX to restore damaged Cape Canaveral launch pad to service in
December
November 1, 2017 Stephen Clark
https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/11/0...-damaged-cape-
canaveral-launch-pad-to-service-in-december/

From above:
NASA said the Dragon spaceship assigned to the December launch
is the same capsule that flew to the station in April 2015 and
returned to Earth a month later. SpaceX launched a reused
Dragon cargo craft to the space station for the first time in
June, and the last newly-manufactured first-generation Dragon
was launched in August.

All future SpaceX resupply flights will use refurbished Dragon
capsules until upgraded ships are ready to take over.

So, the last of first generation Dragons was manufactured this year and
the first reused Dragon is expected to fly this December.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
Ads
  #2  
Old November 5th 17, 05:35 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Greg \(Strider\) Moore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 580
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...


SpaceX to restore damaged Cape Canaveral launch pad to service in
December
November 1, 2017 Stephen Clark
https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/11/0...-damaged-cape-
canaveral-launch-pad-to-service-in-december/

From above:
NASA said the Dragon spaceship assigned to the December launch
is the same capsule that flew to the station in April 2015 and
returned to Earth a month later. SpaceX launched a reused
Dragon cargo craft to the space station for the first time in
June, and the last newly-manufactured first-generation Dragon
was launched in August.

All future SpaceX resupply flights will use refurbished Dragon
capsules until upgraded ships are ready to take over.

So, the last of first generation Dragons was manufactured this year and
the first reused Dragon is expected to fly this December.


Pretty interesting. Also I believe it appears they added another Falcon 9
flight on the schedule for this year (I'm pretty sure it was 19 and now I'm
seeing 20).

I'm still a bit skeptical they'll get Heavy off in December, but, they're SO
close that a minor slip won't mean much.



Jeff


--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
IT Disaster Response -
https://www.amazon.com/Disaster-Resp...dp/1484221834/

  #3  
Old November 5th 17, 07:46 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Anthony Frost
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 240
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

In message
Jeff Findley wrote:

SpaceX launched a reused
Dragon cargo craft to the space station for the first time in
June, and the last newly-manufactured first-generation Dragon
was launched in August.

All future SpaceX resupply flights will use refurbished Dragon
capsules until upgraded ships are ready to take over.

So, the last of first generation Dragons was manufactured this year and
the first reused Dragon is expected to fly this December.


You misread, the first reused Dragon already flew in June. All the
remaining Dragon 1 flights will be re-used capsules, and at least one
will have to make a third flight.

The December flight will also be re-using a first stage.

Anthony

  #4  
Old November 7th 17, 04:05 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,487
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-11-04 11:43, Jeff Findley wrote:

From above:
NASA said the Dragon spaceship assigned to the December launch
is the same capsule that flew to the station in April 2015 and
returned to Earth a month later.


So roughly 6-7 months turn around. Which isn't bad for a capsule that
splashed down in salt water.


Uh, something wrong with your math there. May 2015 to December 2017
is a little bit more than "6-7 months". There is no way to know what
the 'turn around' actually was. I doubt it took 30 months.


I wonder how this will pan out with crewed Dragons. Will they open the
hatch in water to extract crews ASAP (like for Apollo) or will they want
to lift it up and land it on a ship/barge before opening hatch (possible
even rinsing it with fresh water before).


Given that the intent is for it to be reusable, I would doubt they'll
be opening hatches while it's in the water unless it's sinking and
there's an emergency. Reentry accuracy of Dragon V2 is much better
than old capsules and it will land virtually on top of the recovery
platform. Unlike the government, SpaceX doesn't have the US Navy to
manage the recovery. The contract requires them to provide all
recovery facilities with the exception of SAR operations for
emergencies, which will be provided by Detachment 3, 45th Operations
Group, USAF.


Once Dragon V2 starts to fly, I wonder how many SpaceX will need to
build for each of the cargo and manned configs to meet NASA's needs and
turn around times.


Figure it out. It's not that hard. Take your shoes off if you need
to. Figure six-ish resupply missions a year plus two to four crew
exchange flights a year plus one docked as a 'lifeboat; call it a
dozen capsules required a year. They can presumably use Dragon V1
'reflown' capsules for cargo until they have enough V2 hardware on
hand to cycle it through. If they can refurbish a Dragon V2 capsule
in less than two years, they'll need around another dozen of them to
keep the pipeline full. As you shorten the refurbishment time the
number of required 'additional' capsules goes down by around one a
month for every month less than two years you can recycle them in.


Or will SpaceX keep the assembly line going at slow rate because it is
easier to do that than to build a batch of Dragons, produce none for
5-10 years, then get an order for new batch ?


In 10 years their plan is to have shifted to BFR Spaceship for this
stuff. However, they'll almost certainly keep the manufacturing line
going, since they intend to use these for other things than just
supporting NASA. Dragon V2 also isn't fully reusable. There are
parts (like the service module) that you don't get back.


Will crewed taxi flights be on a regular 3 month flight schedule (with
some crews skipping the return to stay 6 months) or will there be
variations in the launch schedule from 3, 4 and 6 months ?


That's up to NASA.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #5  
Old November 7th 17, 12:05 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,487
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-11-06 23:05, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Uh, something wrong with your math there. May 2015 to December 2017
is a little bit more than "6-7 months".


oops my bad.


Given that the intent is for it to be reusable, I would doubt they'll
be opening hatches while it's in the water unless it's sinking and
there's an emergency.


For crewed flights, will SpaceX still do the recovery or will NASA
insist on being involved with its (NAVY) ships ?


The contract says SpaceX is responsible for recovery. I thought I
said that down there somewhere.


With men in capsule running on batteries and air reserves after splash
down, will NASA tolerate they stay in capsule while recovery ship
manoevers so its crane is within rech and attached ?


Again, the capsule comes down practically on top of the recovery ship.
They're safer in the capsule than out of it.


Will NASA tolerate that men ramin in capsule as it is hoisted up on the
ship?


Again, they're safer staying in the capsule than leaving it.



keep the pipeline full. As you shorten the refurbishment time the
number of required 'additional' capsules goes down by around one a
month for every month less than two years you can recycle them in.


But planning production capacity/rate depends on knowning how quickly
you turn around the flown Dragons. Otherwise, you end up producing too
many dragons.


Yes, but YOU don't need to know that number.



supporting NASA. Dragon V2 also isn't fully reusable. There are
parts (like the service module) that you don't get back.


Non refurshibale items are simpler because you know excatly how many you
need to produce according to contract before you start.


You appear to be stuck in the paradigm that all flights are
'contracted' and then you worry about hardware. SpaceX mostly works
the other way around; you produce hardware and then you manifest
flights to use it.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
  #6  
Old November 7th 17, 12:29 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,483
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

In article . com,
says...

On 2017-11-04 11:43, Jeff Findley wrote:

From above:
NASA said the Dragon spaceship assigned to the December launch
is the same capsule that flew to the station in April 2015 and
returned to Earth a month later.


So roughly 6-7 months turn around. Which isn't bad for a capsule that
splashed down in salt water.

I wonder how this will pan out with crewed Dragons. Will they open the
hatch in water to extract crews ASAP (like for Apollo) or will they want
to lift it up and land it on a ship/barge before opening hatch (possible
even rinsing it with fresh water before).


Don't know, but you do know that one Gemini capsule was reflown, right?

Gemini 2 was launched and recovered on January 19, 1965 (unmanned test).
After that flight, not only was it refurbished, but it was modified to
include a hatch in the heat shield as part of a MOL test flight on a
Titan IIIC which took place on November 3, 1966. So, there is a
historical precedent for this being done in a matter of months.

That capsule now resides in the Air Force Space & Missile Museum which
is in Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. There is an unflown
Gemini B (hatch in the heat shield and other modifications for MOL) in
the USAF Museum in Dayton Ohio (it's always a favorite of mine when I
visit the museum).

Once Dragon V2 starts to fly, I wonder how many SpaceX will need to
build for each of the cargo and manned configs to meet NASA's needs and
turn around times.


Unknown, but surely there will be more than one of each. Considering
workflow issues and the need for backups, I'd hazard a guess at maybe 4
of each type (maybe one less or up to a couple more). They won't be
especially cheap to build, so building more than is necessary is clearly
an unnecessary expense.

Or will SpaceX keep the assembly line going at slow rate because it is
easier to do that than to build a batch of Dragons, produce none for
5-10 years, then get an order for new batch ?


They'll surely keep making them if there is demand. But there will be
internal pressure to stop making them, once they have enough to satisfy
demand, so that work can continue on BFR. Note that demand may remain
primarily from NASA or "new markets" could open up based on the future
availability of Dragon V2 and Dragon Heavy. For SpaceX, Dragon V2 is
just another intermediate step along the path of cheap access to space.
They do not intend to keep flying them once BFR is flying.

Will crewed taxi flights be on a regular 3 month flight schedule (with
some crews skipping the return to stay 6 months) or will there be
variations in the launch schedule from 3, 4 and 6 months ?


Unknown. That's up to SpaceX and NASA to negotiate based on NASA's
needs. Also note that Dragon isn't the cargo craft going to ISS, so
plans can always change based on unexpected events (failure of hardware
on ISS, failure of a cargo mission, and etc.).

Your questions, and my answers, are mostly speculation though. We'll
have to wait to see what SpaceX actually does.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #8  
Old November 7th 17, 01:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,487
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

Jeff Findley wrote:

In article ,
says...
Unknown. That's up to SpaceX and NASA to negotiate based on NASA's
needs. Also note that Dragon isn't the cargo craft going to ISS, so
plans can always change based on unexpected events (failure of hardware
on ISS, failure of a cargo mission, and etc.).


I meant to say Dragon isn't the only cargo craft going to ISS. Orbital
ATK's Cygnus spacecraft will continue cargo missions to ISS. And it's
possible that Sierra Nevada's Dreamchaser might start making cargo
flights to ISS (if it ever finishes its test program). I'm really not
fond of horizontal landing reentry vehicles. They're unnecessarily
complex to design, build, and test.


It's not just complexity. Horizontal landers require a lot more
structure that is only used in order to get back down, so their dry
mass tends to be higher. They need both actual landing gear and
something to generate that horizontal lift (wings, a lifting body, or
both). Those things are just parasitic weight during boost, having no
purpose at all. All the machinery for retractable landing gear and
the gear itself is heavy. So is support structure for wings, etc.
Vertical landing legs are lighter and use the same machinery for
getting down as they use for going up, so it's not wasted weight
during boost.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
  #9  
Old November 8th 17, 01:13 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,472
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

On 11/5/2017 1:35 AM, Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:

Pretty interesting. Also I believe it appears they added another Falcon
9 flight on the schedule for this year (I'm pretty sure it was 19 and
now I'm seeing 20).


I believe they did. It's the one they are about to launch later this
month. The mysterious one called ZUMA.

I'm still a bit skeptical they'll get Heavy off in December, but,
they're SO close that a minor slip won't mean much.

I agree. But they have to do some mods to 39C to get it ready for F9H. I
presume minor.

Dave


  #10  
Old November 8th 17, 03:11 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Greg \(Strider\) Moore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 580
Default Reused Dragons to start flying this year

"David Spain" wrote in message news

On 11/5/2017 1:35 AM, Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:

Pretty interesting. Also I believe it appears they added another Falcon 9
flight on the schedule for this year (I'm pretty sure it was 19 and now
I'm seeing 20).


I believe they did. It's the one they are about to launch later this month.
The mysterious one called ZUMA.

I'm still a bit skeptical they'll get Heavy off in December, but, they're
SO close that a minor slip won't mean much.

I agree. But they have to do some mods to 39C to get it ready for F9H. I
presume minor.


I believe you mean 39A. (yes a 39C now exists, but not for this).

I believe the changes are done.

So there's a chance it'll get off in December as scheduled, but if not,
January is looking REAL good.

Now if it gets to ORBIT, that's another story. Let's just say I'd be
standing FAR away when this thing lights up.


Dave


--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
IT Disaster Response -
https://www.amazon.com/Disaster-Resp...dp/1484221834/

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year. Robert Clark Policy 43 June 18th 11 10:37 PM
Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year. Robert Clark History 0 June 18th 11 10:37 PM
Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year. [email protected] Astronomy Misc 2 May 15th 11 03:00 PM
Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year. Robert Clark History 1 May 15th 11 03:00 PM
Let's Start The New Year Off Right For All Space Nuts... spaceprojects.tk Space Science Misc 9 January 27th 04 12:41 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.