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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 4th 17, 04:11 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,662
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

wrote:

In sci.physics Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


My estimate is that for all things manufactured parts that can be made
cheaper and faster by conventional means amount to about 99.99%.


And the world will only need 3 computers. Usual Chimp wisdom.


Kiss my ass Red Herring McTroll.


You're all ass, Chimp.

And about the only place where weight matters that much is in things
that fly and in that case useless mass is already gone from the design
without the expense of 3D printing.


That's why we use carbon fiber on cars; because weight doesn't matter.


"Where's the Affordable Carbon Fiber Automobile?"


Oh, it's not just "things that fly" anymore. Now it's 'affordable'.
My car has carbon fibre parts. I thought it was pretty affordable.


https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...er-automobile/

"While the cost of carbon fiber materials and production has declined
in recent decades, it remains prohibitive for anything but limited
applications in niche vehicles."


That would, according to the Chimp's prior statements, no doubt be the
flying cars, since flying vehicles are the only ones where weight
matters that much (according to him).


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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  #12  
Old July 4th 17, 04:16 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,662
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-07-03 16:14, Jeff Findley wrote:

Actually if the 3D printed part replaces many other parts (e.g.
SuperDraco engines) then it's faster to print than it is to manufacture
and assemble all those other parts.


Am thinking 3D printing would have uses making moulds/mandrels for
complex composite parts (which would then be far stronger than the
plastic 3D printed moulds).


Uh, 3D printing hasn't been limited to plastics for a very long time.
SpaceX is directly printing rocket engine combustion chambers. They're
not made of plastic.


Once done, you can melt the plastic to get it out of places where it
normally couldn't get out.


Why even involve 3D printing if you're then going to throw it away by
reverting to casting parts?


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #16  
Old July 4th 17, 02:11 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 1,597
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In article ,
says...
Also, the other option that 3D printing opens up is more shape optimized
parts. These things are optimized so that "useless" mass is simply gone
from the design. They tend to look "organic" rather than "machined" due
to their complex shapes. I've heard this called "light-weighting" parts
from management types.


And about the only place where weight matters that much is in things
that fly and in that case useless mass is already gone from the design
without the expense of 3D printing.


True, the big dumb cylindrical pressure vessel may not apply but, that's
not the entire aircraft.

If the "mass were already gone from the design" then GE would not be
pouring literally millions of dollars into developing a one meter cubed
3D printer presumably for printing aircraft engine parts.

Landing gear, and all other structural moving parts, is surely another
area on aircraft which could use this technology. Landing gear make up
a significant percentage of an aircraft's total dry mass, so this would
be a likely candidate for shape optimization and 3D printing.

Have you ever looked at the interior structures of an aircraft?


Yes, many times. I've got a b.s. in aerospace engineering, so I know
the basics. Many of our customers are aerospace, so I have to
understand the domain.

3D printing is, and always will be, a niche manufacturing method.

Handy at times, but certainly not a world changer.


This is quite short sighted. I'm sure the same was said about
composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.

I can say that shape optimization coupled with 3D printing is one of the
"bleeding edge" topics in my industry. It's really no secret, you can
surely Google hundreds of articles on the topic. I really can't go into
further details, but my profession is in writing engineering software,
so I ought to know.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #18  
Old July 4th 17, 07:12 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,346
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...
Also, the other option that 3D printing opens up is more shape optimized
parts. These things are optimized so that "useless" mass is simply gone
from the design. They tend to look "organic" rather than "machined" due
to their complex shapes. I've heard this called "light-weighting" parts
from management types.


And about the only place where weight matters that much is in things
that fly and in that case useless mass is already gone from the design
without the expense of 3D printing.


True, the big dumb cylindrical pressure vessel may not apply but, that's
not the entire aircraft.

If the "mass were already gone from the design" then GE would not be
pouring literally millions of dollars into developing a one meter cubed
3D printer presumably for printing aircraft engine parts.

Landing gear, and all other structural moving parts, is surely another
area on aircraft which could use this technology. Landing gear make up
a significant percentage of an aircraft's total dry mass, so this would
be a likely candidate for shape optimization and 3D printing.


Again, you are talking about niche applications and landing gear are not
that big a part of an aircrafts weight.

Have you ever looked at the interior structures of an aircraft?


Yes, many times. I've got a b.s. in aerospace engineering, so I know
the basics. Many of our customers are aerospace, so I have to
understand the domain.

3D printing is, and always will be, a niche manufacturing method.

Handy at times, but certainly not a world changer.


This is quite short sighted. I'm sure the same was said about
composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.


An irrelevant red herring to the subject of 3D printing. There are a HUGE
number of different composite materials out there and it has taken well
over half a century for most aircraft to have even a small fraction of
composite materials in their construction.

Note the word "most".

I can say that shape optimization coupled with 3D printing is one of the
"bleeding edge" topics in my industry. It's really no secret, you can
surely Google hundreds of articles on the topic. I really can't go into
further details, but my profession is in writing engineering software,
so I ought to know.


Whoopee. It is still niche.

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?


Jeff


--
Jim Pennino
  #19  
Old July 4th 17, 07:19 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,346
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-07-04 09:11, Jeff Findley wrote:

composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.


Wouldn't the DC9s/MD80s still in use in the USA be devoid of composites?

And out of curiosity, since new 737s have maintained the "type rating"
of the 1960s 737s, how much of the plane can they convert to composites?

(there are issues with lightning protection for instance which require
different treatment, so not sure if that fits inside the same type rating).

And if they are using 3D printing to create metal parts, how does that
work exactly? Some pen pours molten titanium/whatever to create each
layer? Or is it more laser based to cut a solid block into the perfect
shape?


Metal powder deposition and laser or electron beam sintering.

BTW, metal powders tend to be explosive.

--
Jim Pennino
  #20  
Old July 5th 17, 01:04 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
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Posts: 241
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
4:48
p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/

Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars,
but
none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with
its
high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.

But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact
considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the
home,
an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size,
3D-printed
car.
And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully
3D-printed automobile.

This would revolutionize the industry, obviously.

The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission.

This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor:

How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA

Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be
accomplished
by 3D-printing.


Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Arm waving nonsense.

You need multiple 3D printers if you need to print with multiple materials.

Consumer 3D printers print small parts from cheap plastic and cost hundreds
of dollars.

Industrial 3D printers that print large parts with metals cost hundreds of
thousands of dollars and the printing material costs more than raw metal
stock.

3D printing is advantageous for parts with complex shapes that are
difficult
or impossible to make with other techniques but is disadvantageous for
most parts that ARE manufacturable with conventional techniques as they
can be made faster and cheaper.

3D printing makes PARTS that still need to be assembled.

3D printing an electric motor is just silly.



--

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
4:48
p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/

Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars,
but
none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with
its
high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.

But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact
considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the
home,
an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size,
3D-printed
car.
And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully
3D-printed automobile.

This would revolutionize the industry, obviously.

The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission.

This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor:

How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA

Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be
accomplished
by 3D-printing.


Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Arm waving nonsense.

You need multiple 3D printers if you need to print with multiple materials.

Consumer 3D printers print small parts from cheap plastic and cost hundreds
of dollars.

Industrial 3D printers that print large parts with metals cost hundreds of
thousands of dollars and the printing material costs more than raw metal
stock.

3D printing is advantageous for parts with complex shapes that are
difficult
or impossible to make with other techniques but is disadvantageous for
most parts that ARE manufacturable with conventional techniques as they
can be made faster and cheaper.

3D printing makes PARTS that still need to be assembled.

3D printing an electric motor is just silly.




--

You are correct that metal 3D-printed parts by amateurs were only designed
by them, but had to be actually printed by one of the large 3D-printing
companies.

Still, that leaves open the possibility that a scale-model car could be
designed by amateurs to be fully 3D-printed by one of the large companies.

The largest of the professional, metal 3D-printers common now can 3D-print
parts about a foot across and cost about $250,000. So you can imagine a
3D-printer that can 3D-print parts, say, 10 feet across, would be 10^3 =
1,000 times larger in volume and mass, and perhaps a thousand times more
expensive, to $250 million.

An expensive proposition. But if it can be shown a scale-model car can be
fully 3D-printed then it might be worthwhile for a large industrial company
to invest in this when it would mean any car of any model could be
3D-printed on demand.

Bob Clark

 




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