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The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 21st 16, 09:09 AM posted to sci.space.history
snidely
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Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

Monday, Stuf4 quipped:

Nuclear ICBMs are the only fielded weapon that has NEVER undergone an
end-to-end test. They are far too lethal of a weapon to do that. The
boosters have been tested, with no warhead. And the warheads have been
tested, with no booster (or short range booster). But once you set up a
booster with intercontinental range and put a nuke warhead up top and try to
launch it, ALL your adversaries around the planet will have no idea of the
actual destination of that rocket, so an easy assumption would be that it was
headed for their land, and that they would need to retaliate immediately.

By simply *testing* a full-up ICBM, you would be starting a war.

JFK was explaining to James Webb that this was the way we test the system
without starting a war.


But the launch sequence for a manned space flight is very different
from that of a missile launch, even for Gemini (where an ICBM booster
was used). The process of aiming was very different, even if you were
using the same inertial guidance units. Doesn't seem like a very
effective test to me.

I won't disagree that dick-waving was involved, but at least we got
moon rocks out of it.

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
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  #22  
Old December 29th 16, 06:41 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

From Scott M. Kozel:
snip
No you would not. The shuttle would provide only a very limited first strike that would impact a very limited area, leaving about 99% of the
Soviet first strike assets intact, whereby in about 30 minutes they would be impacting all over the U.S. Not a feasible idea, IMHO.


Perhaps you did not see my reply to David two days previous to yours here.

And even is someone has the full plan explained to them, it's easy to picture them giving all kinds of reasons why such a plan would not work.

Consider these trick plays in football:

"Greatest Trick Plays in Football History"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj8G9dGuNkU


There was a coach somewhere who dreamt up these plays. And there were probably people around that coach saying why these plays will never work. Yet they were tried. And they worked.

Sun Tzu would have a few words here about the Fog of War.


When this topic was started here, it was intended to be totally hypothetical. But it would appear that the upcoming Trump Administration is making the possibility of WWIII much greater than it has been in past decades. The infamous tweet included the words:

"...until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes"


Here is a person whose comprehension of the concept of leadership is very curious, because as the most powerful leader on the planet, you have the ability to point the world in the direction of sanity.

~ CT
  #23  
Old December 30th 16, 03:18 AM posted to sci.space.history
Scott M. Kozel[_2_]
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Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 12:41:41 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
From Scott M. Kozel:

snip
No you would not. The shuttle would provide only a very limited first strike that would impact a very limited area, leaving about 99% of the
Soviet first strike assets intact, whereby in about 30 minutes they would be impacting all over the U.S. Not a feasible idea, IMHO.


Perhaps you did not see my reply to David two days previous to yours here..

And even is someone has the full plan explained to them, it's easy to picture them giving all kinds of reasons why such a plan would not work.

Consider these trick plays in football:

"Greatest Trick Plays in Football History"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj8G9dGuNkU


There was a coach somewhere who dreamt up these plays. And there were probably people around that coach saying why these plays will never work. Yet they were tried. And they worked.


I have seen that video in the past, and there is no comparison between a football play designed to score 6 points, and some kind of one-shot nuclear trick against a nuclear superpower who will rain down thousands of A-bombs and H-bombs all over your nation. You would be committing suicide, national suicide.

Regarding your comments about nobody having ever tested a ICBM shot with a nuclear warhead, it would be too risky because the missile could go off course or maybe even come down in your own country.

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to safely test one.

  #24  
Old December 30th 16, 04:10 AM posted to sci.space.history
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:


Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to safely test one.


Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #25  
Old January 7th 17, 03:31 AM posted to sci.space.history
Scott M. Kozel[_2_]
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Posts: 116
Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:10:35 PM UTC-5, Fred J. McCall wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb
would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to
safely test one.


Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.


The way it was explained was that a large hydrogen bomb is encased
in a cobalt casing, and when it detonates a fission-fusion-fission
reaction takes place, and the explosion is so large that it would
blow up one third of the world.

In the past war planners worked scenarios such as "which city will
we blow up", or "whose country will we blow up". With a cobalt bomb
the question would be "whose one third of the world will we blow up".

Since there is no place to test a cobalt bomb safely, it is unproven
as to the outcome of detonating a cobalt bomb. But nobody would want
to try it.

  #26  
Old January 7th 17, 05:15 AM posted to sci.space.history
David Spain
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Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

On 1/6/2017 9:31 PM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:10:35 PM UTC-5, Fred J. McCall wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb
would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to
safely test one.


Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.


The way it was explained was that a large hydrogen bomb is encased
in a cobalt casing, and when it detonates a fission-fusion-fission
reaction takes place, and the explosion is so large that it would
blow up one third of the world.

In the past war planners worked scenarios such as "which city will
we blow up", or "whose country will we blow up". With a cobalt bomb
the question would be "whose one third of the world will we blow up".


A short off-topic post:

Fission-fusion-fission is the normal process for a hydrogen bomb to
begin with. The majority yield of an H-bomb of the Ulam-Teller design[1]
is derived by fast fission of its natural Uranium tamper jacket of U238
because of bombardment by high energy neutrons from the fusion of
lithium deuteride acting as the solid fusion fuel.

Cobalt bombs were designed for enhanced radioactivity or "dirty" bombs
because of the enhanced half-life of the Co-60 isotope (~ 5 years)
produced by "salted" bombs. It was viewed by war planners as too long to
remain safely sheltered in a bomb shelter and yet still short enough to
produce lethal amounts of radioactivity as a ground contaminate as it
decays to harmless nickel.

I think you are confusing radioactivity for explosive yield as far as
the danger of cobalt bombs are concerned.


Since there is no place to test a cobalt bomb safely, it is unproven
as to the outcome of detonating a cobalt bomb. But nobody would want
to try it.


Untrue. See cited reference below, the UK's Operation Antler/Round 1
tested a bomb using cobalt salts as a radio chemical tracer for yield
estimation.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_bomb

Dave

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon
  #27  
Old January 7th 17, 05:31 AM posted to sci.space.history
David Spain
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Posts: 2,453
Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

On 1/6/2017 11:15 PM, David Spain wrote:
On 1/6/2017 9:31 PM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:10:35 PM UTC-5, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb
would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to
safely test one.

Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.


The way it was explained was that a large hydrogen bomb is encased
in a cobalt casing, and when it detonates a fission-fusion-fission
reaction takes place, and the explosion is so large that it would
blow up one third of the world.

In the past war planners worked scenarios such as "which city will
we blow up", or "whose country will we blow up". With a cobalt bomb
the question would be "whose one third of the world will we blow up".


A short off-topic post:

Fission-fusion-fission is the normal process for a hydrogen bomb to
begin with. The majority yield of an H-bomb of the Ulam-Teller design[1]
is derived by fast fission of its natural Uranium tamper jacket of U238
because of bombardment by high energy neutrons from the fusion of
lithium deuteride acting as the solid fusion fuel.

Cobalt bombs were designed for enhanced radioactivity or "dirty" bombs
because of the enhanced half-life of the Co-60 isotope (~ 5 years)
produced by "salted" bombs. It was viewed by war planners as too long to
remain safely sheltered in a bomb shelter and yet still short enough to
produce lethal amounts of radioactivity as a ground contaminate as it
decays to harmless nickel.

Also just FYI the fission cross section for Co-59 (naturally occurring
Cobalt) is too small to be better than U238 (natural Uranium) in support
of fast fission as a bomb fuel. See the table entitled Typical Cross
Sections in this link for the relative fission cross-sections (in barns)
of various elements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_cross_section

Dave



  #28  
Old January 7th 17, 07:24 AM posted to sci.space.history
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,355
Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:10:35 PM UTC-5, Fred J. McCall wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb
would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to
safely test one.


Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.


The way it was explained was that a large hydrogen bomb is encased
in a cobalt casing, and when it detonates a fission-fusion-fission
reaction takes place, and the explosion is so large that it would
blow up one third of the world.


Utter nonsense. Most modern bombs are fission-fusion-fission and use
HEU for the 'jacket'. Older designs used less fissionable NU or DU,
which made the bombs physically larger and heavier than modern
designs. Cobalt isn't normally fissionable so it adds nothing to the
force of an explosion if it is used for a 'jacket'. See how close
cobalt is to iron in the periodic table? No energy of fission
available there.


In the past war planners worked scenarios such as "which city will
we blow up", or "whose country will we blow up". With a cobalt bomb
the question would be "whose one third of the world will we blow up".


Utter nonsense.


Since there is no place to test a cobalt bomb safely, it is unproven
as to the outcome of detonating a cobalt bomb. But nobody would want
to try it.


A 'cobalt' bomb is a large RADIOLOGICAL bomb. What the cobalt does is
produce ****loads of really nasty and long lived fallout isotopes
(Co60). This then spread around huge chunks of countryside, making it
uninhabitable for very long times, since its half-life is measured in
years. It adds NOTHING to the force of the explosion.

Let me say it again, since you didn't get it the first time I said it.
A COBALT JACKET ADDS ***NOTHING*** TO THE EXPLOSIVE FORCE OF A
THERMONUCLEAR WEAPONS.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #29  
Old January 7th 17, 07:34 AM posted to sci.space.history
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,355
Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

David Spain wrote:

On 1/6/2017 9:31 PM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:10:35 PM UTC-5, Fred J. McCall wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb
would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to
safely test one.

Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.


The way it was explained was that a large hydrogen bomb is encased
in a cobalt casing, and when it detonates a fission-fusion-fission
reaction takes place, and the explosion is so large that it would
blow up one third of the world.

In the past war planners worked scenarios such as "which city will
we blow up", or "whose country will we blow up". With a cobalt bomb
the question would be "whose one third of the world will we blow up".


A short off-topic post:

Fission-fusion-fission is the normal process for a hydrogen bomb to
begin with. The majority yield of an H-bomb of the Ulam-Teller design[1]
is derived by fast fission of its natural Uranium tamper jacket of U238
because of bombardment by high energy neutrons from the fusion of
lithium deuteride acting as the solid fusion fuel.


Quite right. Each set of that (fission-fusion-fission) is called a
'stage' of the weapon. Most nuclear weapons these days are two stage
weapons, where each stage uses radiation pressure from the preceding
stage to compress the 'pit'. It is possible to design weapons with
large numbers of stages, but it becomes something of a waste of time
after a few stages. The most stages we've actually used in a weapon
is three. The most stages in any modern weapon is two. It makes more
sense to build a pair of two stage weapons and spread them around
rather than a single three or four stage weapon that wastes most of
its energy.


Cobalt bombs were designed for enhanced radioactivity or "dirty" bombs
because of the enhanced half-life of the Co-60 isotope (~ 5 years)
produced by "salted" bombs. It was viewed by war planners as too long to
remain safely sheltered in a bomb shelter and yet still short enough to
produce lethal amounts of radioactivity as a ground contaminate as it
decays to harmless nickel.

I think you are confusing radioactivity for explosive yield as far as
the danger of cobalt bombs are concerned.


I don't believe anyone ever built a cobalt bomb. Turns out that a
fission-fusion-fission bomb is damned near as dirty while having the
advantage of not screwing things up for centuries, so there was no
point.



Since there is no place to test a cobalt bomb safely, it is unproven
as to the outcome of detonating a cobalt bomb. But nobody would want
to try it.


Untrue. See cited reference below, the UK's Operation Antler/Round 1
tested a bomb using cobalt salts as a radio chemical tracer for yield
estimation.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_bomb

Dave

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon


--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world."
-- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden
  #30  
Old January 7th 17, 07:45 AM posted to sci.space.history
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,355
Default The Space Race was about Power Projection - Miles O'Brien

David Spain wrote:

On 1/6/2017 11:15 PM, David Spain wrote:
On 1/6/2017 9:31 PM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:10:35 PM UTC-5, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

Likewise nobody has ever tested a cobalt bomb. A cobalt bomb
would blow up one third of the world, so there is no place to
safely test one.

Don't be silly. The cobalt adds nothing to the explosion.

The way it was explained was that a large hydrogen bomb is encased
in a cobalt casing, and when it detonates a fission-fusion-fission
reaction takes place, and the explosion is so large that it would
blow up one third of the world.

In the past war planners worked scenarios such as "which city will
we blow up", or "whose country will we blow up". With a cobalt bomb
the question would be "whose one third of the world will we blow up".


A short off-topic post:

Fission-fusion-fission is the normal process for a hydrogen bomb to
begin with. The majority yield of an H-bomb of the Ulam-Teller design[1]
is derived by fast fission of its natural Uranium tamper jacket of U238
because of bombardment by high energy neutrons from the fusion of
lithium deuteride acting as the solid fusion fuel.

Cobalt bombs were designed for enhanced radioactivity or "dirty" bombs
because of the enhanced half-life of the Co-60 isotope (~ 5 years)
produced by "salted" bombs. It was viewed by war planners as too long to
remain safely sheltered in a bomb shelter and yet still short enough to
produce lethal amounts of radioactivity as a ground contaminate as it
decays to harmless nickel.


Also just FYI the fission cross section for Co-59 (naturally occurring
Cobalt) is too small to be better than U238 (natural Uranium) in support
of fast fission as a bomb fuel. See the table entitled Typical Cross
Sections in this link for the relative fission cross-sections (in barns)
of various elements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_cross_section


He should also be aware that iron is a low energy point in the
periodic table. Elements significantly heavier than iron can produce
energy via fission because they will produce pieces heavier than iron
but closer to it than the original fissionable material, energy, and
spare neutrons. Very light elements can fusion, producing products
closer to iron and also some energy. Trying to fission (or fusion)
things close to iron (like cobalt) CONSUMES energy if you could
succeed at it, so what you get from pelting cobalt with neutrons is
merely a different isotope of cobalt (transmutation from stable Co59
to radioactive Co60).


--
"Death is my gift." -- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
 




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