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HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 31st 08, 12:42 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,466
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips

That Hubble repair mission is causing a lot of trouble as far as
scheduling for other things goes:
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20..._update_a.html

Pat
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  #2  
Old October 31st 08, 01:54 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:42:09 -0600, in a place far, far away, Pat
Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

That Hubble repair mission is causing a lot of trouble as far as
scheduling for other things goes:
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20..._update_a.html


Like an Ares-1-X slip is going to slow the actual program down.
  #3  
Old October 31st 08, 10:58 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Jeff Findley
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Posts: 5,012
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips


"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:42:09 -0600, in a place far, far away, Pat
Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

That Hubble repair mission is causing a lot of trouble as far as
scheduling for other things goes:
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20..._update_a.html


Like an Ares-1-X slip is going to slow the actual program down.


NASA management certainly played the blame the Russians game with ISS, so it
wouldn't surprise me if they were found doing the same sort of thing with
Ares.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein


  #4  
Old October 31st 08, 11:05 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Ian Parker
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Posts: 2,554
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips

On 31 Oct, 10:58, "Jeff Findley" wrote:
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message

...

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:42:09 -0600, in a place far, far away, Pat
Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:


That Hubble repair mission is causing a lot of trouble as far as
scheduling for other things goes:
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20..._update_a.html


Like an Ares-1-X slip is going to slow the actual program down.


NASA management certainly played the blame the Russians game with ISS, so it
wouldn't surprise me if they were found doing the same sort of thing with
Ares.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein


I have just read an article in the Times which says that Apollo/saturn
veterans are being drafted in to sort out the Ares problems. I did say
some time back that Sauturn worked and one could do a lot worse than
dig out the S5 designs.


- Ian Parker
  #5  
Old October 31st 08, 11:30 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Jeff Findley
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Posts: 5,012
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips


"Ian Parker" wrote in message
...
I have just read an article in the Times which says that Apollo/saturn
veterans are being drafted in to sort out the Ares problems. I did say
some time back that Sauturn worked and one could do a lot worse than
dig out the S5 designs.


Saturn V did have its teething problems. In particular, the POGO problem
was rather severe.

However, I always like to note that POGO problems in a liquid fueled engine
stage can be solved, and were solved on Saturn V. But the vibration problem
with solid rocket motors can't really be eliminated. The best you can do
with large solids is to mitigate the problem.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein


  #6  
Old October 31st 08, 01:37 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,466
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips



Jeff Findley wrote:


Saturn V did have its teething problems. In particular, the POGO problem
was rather severe.

However, I always like to note that POGO problems in a liquid fueled engine
stage can be solved, and were solved on Saturn V.


Sort of solved... they never did completely figure out the root cause of
it in the first stage, and the second stage severely manifested it at
least once - during the Apollo 13 mission in which it caused the center
J-2 to shut down just prior to it getting to the point where it could
have caused vehicle failure.
There's a discussion of it in relation to various boosters he
http://www.pwrengineering.com/articles/pogo.htm

Pat
  #7  
Old October 31st 08, 02:41 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,487
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips

Ian Parker wrote:
:
:I have just read an article in the Times which says that Apollo/saturn
:veterans are being drafted in to sort out the Ares problems.
:

Which "Times" and could we have a real cite to that?

You do realize that "Apollo/Saturn veterans" would be in their 80's or
older by now, right?

:
:I did say
:some time back that Sauturn worked and one could do a lot worse than
:dig out the S5 designs.
:

One could also do much, much, MUCH better...

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
  #8  
Old October 31st 08, 03:10 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Jeff Findley
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Posts: 5,012
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips


"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...

Sort of solved... they never did completely figure out the root cause of
it in the first stage, and the second stage severely manifested it at
least once - during the Apollo 13 mission in which it caused the center
J-2 to shut down just prior to it getting to the point where it could have
caused vehicle failure.
There's a discussion of it in relation to various boosters he
http://www.pwrengineering.com/articles/pogo.htm


To be fair, there really weren't enough Saturn V flights to completely work
out the bugs. As the above article states, there were several causes for
POGO type vibrations on the various Saturn V stages.

My point is that no matter how many times Ares I flies, its SRB will
*always* be generating thrust oscillations. With a liquid fueled engine,
there are always things you can tweak which could potentially reduce or
eliminate things like hard starts, combustion instabilities, and POGO.

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds. They have most of the disadvantages
of solids and liquids.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein


  #9  
Old October 31st 08, 04:46 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Martha Adams
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Posts: 371
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
Ian Parker wrote:
:
:I have just read an article in the Times which says that
Apollo/saturn
:veterans are being drafted in to sort out the Ares problems.
:

Which "Times" and could we have a real cite to that?

You do realize that "Apollo/Saturn veterans" would be in their 80's or
older by now, right?

:
:I did say
:some time back that Sauturn worked and one could do a lot worse than
:dig out the S5 designs.
:

One could also do much, much, MUCH better...

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine


Note those words:

One could also do much, much, MUCH better...


which are true but if you have any engineering experience
then you would be thinking,

Well, there are basically two kinds of product improvement
over time. These are, 1) incremental growth; 2) breakthru.
However, the few Saturn V flights (in face of budgets cuts
and engineering shops and production line rumors) weren't
sufficient experience for either one to happen. Truly
great ideas were on the boards (and when I think what would
have come of it if the Vietnam war had been cut back to free
dollars for Apollo rather than Apollo killed to gain dollars
for the war, *that hurts*. Think of how today's America
would be different).

Anyhow, yes, I recall hearing of the Saturn V pogo, and of
the remedies for it. You know the age of the workers who
made Apollo averaged out to about 28? If the program had
not been killed, those people in their primes would have
accomplished miracles. I have a suggestion, if you want
to know a little more of the Washington political style
around that time: find a video of Burt Rutan's talk at
ISDC 2005. The video loses his slides, so I'm scouting
around cyberspace to find a pointer to his talk put in
print somewhere -- with the slides. If I can find this,
I'll advertise it all thru cyberspace. From the rooftops,
as they say, but that's another topic.

Yes, we could do much, much, MUCH better.... Can you
review the news, scout around right here in this topic,
sci.spac.policy, and guess some reasons why such bad
people in power could foist such bad decisions upon
all of us? So it never happened? ??

Titeotwawki -- mha [sci.space.policy 2008 Oct 31]


  #10  
Old October 31st 08, 08:18 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rick Jones[_3_]
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Posts: 587
Default HST repair delayed; Ares 1-X launch slips

In sci.space.history Pat Flannery wrote:
There's a discussion of it in relation to various boosters he
http://www.pwrengineering.com/articles/pogo.htm


Wish I fully understood it I wonder what is done in
Merlin-1C/Falcon[19] wrt the issue?

rick jones
--
Process shall set you free from the need for rational thought.
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway...
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
 




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