On the ...ABSURDITY of Nasa's Search for Water

In sci.space.policy MarsFossils wrote:
The chemistry of the solar nebula dust that accumulated to form the
earth should be more or less the same as the dust that accumulated to
form Mars. Earth has water all over the place, why shouldn't Mars.

A possible reason might be that Jupiter "stole" a large portion of it.

Mars has river vallies and liquid flow features. Why shouldn't it,
long in the past, have standing bodies of water. But there is not
enough atmosphere there now to allow liquid water. The atmosphere is
only 0.6% of earth. Either you will find ice or steam, not liquid
water - salty or otherwise.

for some value of 'large' it probably did at some point. It doesn't
follow that it need have stayed on Mars, it might have left with the
atmosphere.


Yet, for some reason, we have yet to see the antepenultimate press
conference announcing the discovery of water on Mars. It should one
of those, "Oh yeah, we found some more traces of water too." things,
not a great and wonderful reason for an announcement.

Not really - there isn't an inherent reason why there should be water
on Mars any more than it should be on Venus (where there really isn't).


Michael
Mars Fossils, Pseudofossils, and Problematica
http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~weinberg/mars
There has never been a better Mars fossils web page.

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

In most physics problems the first order of business
is generally to be sure of the frame of reference.
Else all that follows is misguided.

With the rover mission we have taken our frame
of reference...our bias....with us when assuming
water is the dynamic ecosystem medium.

In complexity science the first order of business is
to define the system. This is often arbitrary and
subjective, but a frame is needed before any
detailed analysis is attempted.

The attractor basins must be defined first. This is done
by defining the endpoints, or extremes in possibility
space for the system at hand. For example, if the
system is a body of water, one extreme in possibility
space for that system is ice, the static attractor. The
other extreme is vapor, the chaotic attractor. At some
point between those extremes the system undergoes
phase changes, where it is neither ice or vapor. Water
of course. That would define the dynamic attractor
or complex realm.

The dynamic attractor is the medium where the two
extremes can transition between each other. Without
defining the extremes in possibilities it's not possible to
understand the dynamics. Without this complex realm both
extremes would remain locked in place. No interaction
would be possible and no self organization or evolution.

When looking at the biosphere of earth the attractor
basins are easy to see. Earth, water and the atmosphere
comprise the frame of reference. All three are integral
parts of the whole. Solid, liquid and gas.

On Mars we have a different situation. When looking at
the extremes in possibilities we see that one extreme
is frozen water underground and in the poles, the other
is ground and surface water. The thin atmosphere serves
mostly as a constraint. Unlike earth, water spends very
little time in the Martian atmosphere.

So the extremes in possibilities on Mars is not solid, liquid
and gas. But solid and liquid. With climate change or ice
ages playing the deciding variable.

This system needs a dynamic attractor. Which would be the
medium where the two extremes are allowed to change
phase or interact. During climates like now where surface
water cannot exist, the complex realm is the near surface
soil. When surface water exists our standard frame would
return.

So it is now primarily in the soil where the interaction, the complex
behavior can take place. Where self organization and life
can now occur.

Of course many conclusions follow from this. On earth the
rate of change or seasons take place very quickly, perhaps
every day or year. On Mars since soil is the complex medium
the life processes would take place much slower. Perhaps
closer to geologic time. Or more likely between ice ages.

With a proper ecosystem frame of reference we can take
another look at Meridiani. The soil appears fresh and
pristine, yet the rocks appear weathered and have fossilized
encrustations. A seeming contradiction given our earthly
frame of reference. But with a Martian frame these observations
make sense. When the seas are present, life would quickly emerge
from underground hibernation, and the soil would then build. When
the climate changed the seas would withdraw and leave behind
just what we see. Except perhaps for a blanket of sand that has
weathered away.

Life would retreat underground and find a suitable transition space, such
as between ice and water, fresh and salt water.

When no surface water is possible, bacteria would be the primary
life. When the seas returned this bacteria could quickly evolve
into higher life forms such as two or more celled organisms.

A season on Mars is an ice age, not a year.

We should look for the soil, not water, to understand
this ecosystem and find our answers. Where there is
soil, there is water and life below.


Jonathan


s

"El Guapo" wrote in message
news:06pcc.191019$1p.2223623@attbi_s54...
"jonathan" wrote in message
...


In most physics problems the first order of business
is generally to be sure of the frame of reference.
Else all that follows is misguided.

With the rover mission we have taken our frame
of reference...our bias....with us when assuming
water is the dynamic ecosystem medium.

In complexity science the first order of business is
to define the system. This is often arbitrary and
subjective, but a frame is needed before any
detailed analysis is attempted.

The attractor basins must be defined first. This is done
by defining the endpoints, or extremes in possibility
space for the system at hand. For example, if the
system is a body of water, one extreme in possibility
space for that system is ice, the static attractor. The
other extreme is vapor, the chaotic attractor. At some
point between those extremes the system undergoes
phase changes, where it is neither ice or vapor. Water
of course. That would define the dynamic attractor
or complex realm.

The dynamic attractor is the medium where the two
extremes can transition between each other. Without
defining the extremes in possibilities it's not possible to
understand the dynamics. Without this complex realm both
extremes would remain locked in place. No interaction
would be possible and no self organization or evolution.

When looking at the biosphere of earth the attractor
basins are easy to see. Earth, water and the atmosphere
comprise the frame of reference. All three are integral
parts of the whole. Solid, liquid and gas.

On Mars we have a different situation. When looking at
the extremes in possibilities we see that one extreme
is frozen water underground and in the poles, the other
is ground and surface water. The thin atmosphere serves
mostly as a constraint. Unlike earth, water spends very
little time in the Martian atmosphere.

So the extremes in possibilities on Mars is not solid, liquid
and gas. But solid and liquid. With climate change or ice
ages playing the deciding variable.

This system needs a dynamic attractor. Which would be the
medium where the two extremes are allowed to change
phase or interact. During climates like now where surface
water cannot exist, the complex realm is the near surface
soil. When surface water exists our standard frame would
return.

So it is now primarily in the soil where the interaction, the complex
behavior can take place. Where self organization and life
can now occur.

Of course many conclusions follow from this. On earth the
rate of change or seasons take place very quickly, perhaps
every day or year. On Mars since soil is the complex medium
the life processes would take place much slower. Perhaps
closer to geologic time. Or more likely between ice ages.

With a proper ecosystem frame of reference we can take
another look at Meridiani. The soil appears fresh and
pristine, yet the rocks appear weathered and have fossilized
encrustations. A seeming contradiction given our earthly
frame of reference. But with a Martian frame these observations
make sense. When the seas are present, life would quickly emerge
from underground hibernation, and the soil would then build. When
the climate changed the seas would withdraw and leave behind
just what we see. Except perhaps for a blanket of sand that has
weathered away.

Life would retreat underground and find a suitable transition space, such
as between ice and water, fresh and salt water.

When no surface water is possible, bacteria would be the primary
life. When the seas returned this bacteria could quickly evolve
into higher life forms such as two or more celled organisms.

A season on Mars is an ice age, not a year.

We should look for the soil, not water, to understand
this ecosystem and find our answers. Where there is
soil, there is water and life below.


Jonathan

Blah blah blah. You're just talking out of your ass again. Didn't your
first bitch slapping by reality teach you any lessons? So now you have a
new theory, how do you propose to test it? Supposedly Mars is going to form
seas again, assuming it ever had any in the first place. Got any proof for
that? Any idea at all how that is supposed to happen?


"One explanation could be that Mars is just coming out of an ice age," Feldman said
http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odys...20031208a.html

"El Guapo" wrote in message
news:rlycc.78246$gA5.960257@attbi_s03...
"jonathan" wrote in message
...


Blah blah blah. You're just talking out of your ass again. Didn't your
first bitch slapping by reality teach you any lessons? So now you have
a
new theory, how do you propose to test it? Supposedly Mars is going to
form
seas again, assuming it ever had any in the first place. Got any proof
for that? Any idea at all how that is supposed to happen?



"One explanation could be that Mars is just coming out of an ice age,"
Feldman said


http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odys...20031208a.html

He's giving one possible explanation for why there is more subsurface water
ice than would be expected given the current climate. In other words, he's
wondering why the ice hasn't dissipated into the atmosphere. In no way does
that imply that Mars will heat up enough to allow standing water, or that
the surface will be covered with lakes or seas. Didn't you even read the
article?


He's also saying that the observations show evidence of recent climate
change as in periodic ice ages waxing and waning. That the water has
not found an equilibrium. At the last Nasa conference several minutes
were spent speculating that these bodies of water could be
covered by ice. Protecting them from the thin atmosphere.

Certainly any standing water would freeze over or evaporate. But
enough water melting out might create ice capped lakes.

A spring fed lake could certainly be replenished faster then the
ice cap would ablate away.


Jonathan

s