Spotting Scope or Binoculars?

Hi John

My suggestion is to buy a pretty decent pair of binoculars in the 10x50
configuration, but not the SE's. Rather save the extra money for a
proper telescope. If your interest in astronomy goes for a dip in the
future (unlikely), then a decent pair of 10x50s will still be useful for
other terrestrial stuff too.

Start off by looking at Nikon's 10x50 models just below the SE's and
other brands in that price range. Compare the different brands side by
side, if you can. I am sure you know by now what makes bino's good for
astronomy.

If you go for 10x or higher magnification, be prepared to buy a tripod
or binocular mount. I use a Manfrotto model 75 tripod (they go by some
other name in the US) - they are very sturdy and not too heavy. You
will have to buy a tripod head as well. The benefit is that one just
sees so much more through mounted binoculars, especially if you can
leave them on a specific spot and then consult your maps or notes.

Talking of which, get yourself a set of detailed maps like Sky Atlas
2000 which complements the 10x50s very well - hundreds of objects to
explore.

I would also recommend Crossen & Tirion's 'Binocular Astronomy' book.

Make best use of this setup for a year or so and save the extra Euro's
for a decent telescope - either a 80mm+ 'grab & go' or a 8" or bigger
scope - depending on your mobility requirements. If you are still
interested in astronomy (most likely), the extra money saved will be
well spent on a telescope and accessories.

I promise you, you will be very tempted to buy a telescope as the bino's
makes you feel that you are missing out on something. The benefit of
starting out with the binoculars are that you will learn the sky well,
the objects up there and their motions throughout the seasons.

When you feel you have seen enough through the bino's and/or you have
enough money saved for a decent telescope, you will appreciate the views
through a telescope so much more.

Eye relief is important if you will be wearing glasses while looking
through the binoculars. If so, then longer eye relief should be a
consideration, otherwise you don't see the full field of view.

Regards

John Honan wrote in message ...
I have spent the last month in my garden (well, when there hasn't been cloud
cover) with a pair of old 7x50 binoculars and a starchart. Mainly finding my
way around the constellations, and roughly locating the Messier objects. I'm
in a light-polluted area so can't resolve much detail (I need to arrange a
trip to a dark site one of these days!)

At this point I want to get a new pair of binoculars or a spotting scope
(the 7x50's are borrowed) I've spent some time reading reviews and forums
looking for the best options for a new pair of binoculars - And I can't
decide between getting binoculars or a spotting scope. I've narrowed it down
to the following; (It's just coincidence that they're all Nikon - honest!)

- Nikon 12x50 Se cf binoculars (I assume these are Superior E) 780 euro
- Nikon 10x42 Se cf binoculars 720 euro
- Nikon spotting scope 80A
http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/news...ope80_e_00.htm 515 euro (with
20-60 zoom)


Hi John,

I have the Nikon 12x50 SE and 10x42 SE. Both are very nice, but
I prefer the 12x50 for astronomy and the 10x42 for bird watching.

I also have a Leica 77mm APO Trinivid spotting scope. Unless you
are going to use the spotting scope for daytime activities, like bird
watching, you can get a telescope better for astronomy for much less
money. The Leica gives fine images but eyepiece selection only allows
it only goes up to 60x. If you must have a small refractor, consider a
TV 76 or Tak FS-78. Then again, why not a Takahashi FS-102?

I suggest you consider a good 8" Newtonian on a Dob mount. Lots of
bang for the Euro. I also suggest you get a good non magnifying finder
like a Telrad. They make finding objects much easier. Yes, you will
need to learn how to collimate the Newt. But that is not difficult.

For the price of a good APO spotting scope you could get an 8"
Celestron SCT. A non magnifying finder like a Telrad is still a
very good idea.

Because of the increased magnification and increase in light gathering,
a telescope, like an 8" Newt. will let you see objects in much more detail
than a 12x50 binocular.

You migh also consider a 15x50 Canon IS binocular.

Good luck,
Rich



Binocular advantages:
Using 2 eyes, not one - how much difference does this really make?
Binocular astronomers love the Nikon Superiors!
Robust
General purpose use, take them anywhere
Easier to hold than a scope (?)

Scope advantages:
80mm aperture versus 50mm in the binoculars
20-60 zoom (don't know how useable the 60 zoom would be, wouldn't this give
a *very* small exit pupil?)
Robust, rubber coated
Can take various lenses, and possibly camera adapter (almost a small
refractor telescope)
Cost less (although not really a prob if the binocs would be a better
choice)

I haven't read much about scopes in this newsgroup. Do people generally
favour binoculars for astronomy? I've looked at Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leica
as well. Leica Trinovids are another option, although this would be pushing
the price up even more, and I think I'd be happy with the Nikon Superiors.
If you had 700 euro burning a hole in your pocket, which one would you buy?

One last question, what is 'eye relief' ? What effect does it have when
you're using a scope with poor eye relief?

Thanks,
John.

Trane Francks wrote:
On 2003-09-18 11:28 +0900, Phil Wheeler wrote:

The real answer with binos is a parallelogram mount. My Unimount makes


No, the real answer is a Starchair TM 3000!

http://www.starchair.com/

At $4650, you might as well buy the big JMI 6" binos at $4000!

My Unimount was under $500, including the really nice surveyor's tripod.
And is quite portable (the Starchair looks pretty bulky and heavy).
And I can use any chair.

Phil

My vote goes for a decent pair of binoculars, although the people
advising one of the short tube scopes make some very good points.
Binoculars are great for making a quick run around the sky, checking out
maybe a dozen DSOs at a time, sweeping the Milky Way, and just taking in
the grand scheme of things. Binoculars are also the best way to simply
learn your way around the sky. (Some would say that in this age of GOTO
scopes, learning the sky is a waste of time, but for me personally, it's
the most satisfying part of the hobby.) A scope is better for homing in
on individual objects, or looking at planets. Most amateur astronomers
use both binoculars and telescopes. I have a nice scope, but limited
time, and my binocs spend a lot more time under starlight than my scope
does. And, as others have pointed out, if your interest in astronomy
wanes, you can always use the binoculars.
In some ways, they're completely different tools. If you were a
carpenter, would you need a hammer or a screwdriver?
Marty

One more point. If you go for the binoculars, you've caught on by now
that using them on a mount, if you choose to do so, can be a problem. I
usually hand hold mine, and feel that that's one of the big advantages
of binoculars, but more detail in DSOs etc. does pop out with a steady
mount. If you go for a plain old tripod with a binocular adapter, get a
HUGE one. If you can't stand up straight and look up into your binocs,
you'll be so uncomfortable that you won't benefit from the added
steadiness. Even with a gigantic tripod, you won't be able to get up
toward the zenith. Since money was an object for my choice, I watched
ebay until an enormous but ugly old tripod, (an old Davidson "Star D")
went by for 5 bucks. I have a rather tall binocular adapter too, and
although I'm about an even 6 feet, I can crank everything all the way
up, tilt the pan head back, and look up to about two thirds of the way
up to the zenith. Fancier mounts would be better, but this ain't bad
for CHEAP.
Marty

"John Honan" wrote in message
...
At this point I want to get a new pair of binoculars or a spotting scope
snip

Thanks very much for the excellent replies. Since making my original post,
I've been thinking again about what I could really get for 700 euros.

The advice here has been very helpful. Essentially I was obsessed with
getting the 'best' bino or spotting scope optics and pushing the price up to
(and past) the 1,000 mark. And what would I essentially have? - Still a pair
of binoculars. Some interesting points were also made about the importance
of having a tripod for binocular viewing.

Some good advice also about which books to get. I have a few things on my
Amazon wishlist already! - Up until now I've been printing off sky charts
from heavens-above (as well as getting picky about working out my EXACT
latitude and longtitude!). But A4 pages tend to crease and flutter around,
and aren't that easy to read.

So, in re-thinking all of this, I've been looking at either a) A pair of
binoculars for 100-200 PLUS an 80mm short tube scope for 300-400 (Vixen
Planet 80s for 412 euro) OR b) for 700 euro, I could even consider an 8" f6
Newtonian on an Eq mount, something like
http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/en-gb/p_353.html If I had to choose between the
8" or the expensive Nikons, I think I'd go with the 8" Newt...

But I think I need to get to a few club meetings and try out the different
types of scope myself, to at least work out what type I want!

To be honest, before I started looking at prices on the internet, I was
using a local supplier here in Ireland as my benchmark for prices. They
appear to supply only Celestrons, and the sorts of prices they were talking
for anything with a decent aperture was way above what I was intending to
spend.

For example;

Celestron NexStar 114GT - 1,014 euro (US$1,140)
NexStar N8 (8" f/10 SCT) - 4,107 euro (US$4,620)
C102-HD (4" refractor) - 926 euro (US$1,042)

Do these (Irish) prices seem unreasonable? - I'm glad I did a bit of
shopping around on the internet before going to their showroom, lets put it
that way. I was going to give up on the hobby at one stage with prices like
that! - It'd take me ten years before I could afford to progress from the
7x50's.... :-/

An excellent site I found is http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/index-1.html
They're a short boat trip from Dublin, and the prices are much friendlier.
1,000 euro would pay for the boat trip, the petrol, the 8" newt, and I'd
still have change left over for a pair of binoculars (and a nice lunch)

One final point - Nobody seemed to give spotting scopes much of a rating.
Although what got me interested in spotting scopes as an option were the
good reviews I'd read on a few sites (Tele Vue Ranger and Pronto, or the
Leica Televid http://www.cloudynights.com/reviews/leica.htm) But for the
sort of money these high-end spotting scopes cost, surely an 80mm short tube
would be more flexible, and an overall better option for the beginner
astronomer?

John.

"John Honan" wrote in message ...
At this point I want to get a new pair of binoculars or a spotting scope

Several have advised you that spotting scopes are not good for
astronomy. However, the ST80 scopes so popular for widefield astronomy
on this group make good spotting scopes when used with a 45 degree
diaganol. Celestron sells a version of this scope, the Celestron 80mm
Wide View, which comes with a 45 degree diaganol. You could then add a
good quality 90 degree mirror diaganol for astronomy and have a dual
purpose scope.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:14:39 +0100, "John Honan"
wrote:

"John Honan" wrote in message

So, in re-thinking all of this, I've been looking at either a) A pair of
binoculars for 100-200 PLUS an 80mm short tube scope for 300-400 (Vixen
Planet 80s for 412 euro) OR b) for 700 euro, I could even consider an 8" f6
Newtonian on an Eq mount, something like
http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/en-gb/p_353.html If I had to choose between the
8" or the expensive Nikons, I think I'd go with the 8" Newt...

ME TOO!


But I think I need to get to a few club meetings and try out the different
types of scope myself, to at least work out what type I want!

Very Good idea.

One final point - Nobody seemed to give spotting scopes much of a rating.
Although what got me interested in spotting scopes as an option were the
good reviews I'd read on a few sites (Tele Vue Ranger and Pronto, or the
Leica Televid http://www.cloudynights.com/reviews/leica.htm) But for the
sort of money these high-end spotting scopes cost, surely an 80mm short tube
would be more flexible, and an overall better option for the beginner
astronomer?

The ST80 is a mighty fine spotting scope for the price.
I use mine for spying on a Hawk nest nearby, Viewing the sun with a Ha
filter and I pack it along when I go camping when I leave my big
telescope at home.

Binoculars, Spotting scopes and Telescopes. I use all 3 but for
different purposes.

Cheers, Kruger

"John Honan" wrote in message ...

One final point - Nobody seemed to give spotting scopes much of a rating.

Well, spotting scopes are useful for anything *but* astronomy, like
birding, watching wildlife and so forth. During this last year I have
found literally twenty "new" speices of birds that I didn't know were here.
My brother-in-law, who hunts moose every autumn, has asked to borrow the
scope to try and see if his hunting team can use it to decide if any moose
they see during long-range scouting is part of their quota and can be felled,
or has to be left. Usually, they know only when they see the the animal in
the rifle scope, the second they decide whether to pull the trigger or not.
My brother-in-law wants to see if they can decide *before* they launch a
full-scale "expedition". And the spotting scope is way less bulky than most
astro scopes, so it is way easier both to transport and to store. Certainly
something to be considered if you have limited storage space or don't have
a car to move the scope around with.

If you take a parallel in the world of cars, I would say that the spotting
scope is like the average Volvo that can be used for anything, anywhere,
but that doesn't necessarily do any of it extremely well. The astro scope,
on the other hand, is more like the racing car that is highly specialized
towards one type of use in one set of circumstances, that is virtually
useless for other purposes. A spotting scope is better than naked eyes for
astronomy, so if a spotting scope is what you have, use it. But if astronomy
is the main reason for buying a new scope, the majority of arguments point
towards getting an astro scope.

Rune

Victor wrote:
I would also recommend Crossen & Tirion's 'Binocular Astronomy' book.

I forgot to mention Phil Harrington's "Touring the Universe Through
Binoculars" - these 2 books complement each other very well!