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wrote in message oups.com... George Dishman wrote: "Llanzlan Klazmon" wrote in message 7.6... "George Dishman" wrote in : Jonathan, I read your response but I think you credit Gerald with too much understanding. wrote in message oups.com... To Jonathan ... That shadow/light division changes in accordance with Kepler's second law (see first diagram) thereby generating the Equation of Time differential between the natural day and the 24 hour clock day and more importantly seasonal variations from a global perspective rather than the pathetic winter/summer hemispherical descriptions. Read that again: "seasonal variations from a global perspective rather than the pathetic winter/summer hemispherical descriptions." AFAICS, Gerald is saying that if it is summer in the UK (as it is now, I know, I'm here), it is also summer in Australia and the widely held belief that they are six months out of phase is erroneous! Maybe one of our antipodean contributors could perform a scientific experiment and pop his head out of the window to check for us :-) Just carried out your experiment. Definitely winter here and I'm not too far from Australia. Looks like Gerald's hypothesis is empirically disproved. Well who'da thought? Marvellous, thank you Llanzlan. Can you explain those two observations Gerald? Most people have enough common sense to realise that the Earth axial orientation is constantly pointed towards Polaris therefore the Equator at 90 degrees to the axis will also remain fixed. True, many people know that the axis of the Earth's _rotation_ currently passes close to Polaris: http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/umi-t.html Probably somewhat fewer also know that the axis of the Earth's _orbit_ passes close to Nu Draconis: http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/dra-t.html Guess what the angle between them is. The cause in seasonal changes from a global perspective is the change in orbital orientation of the Earth to this fixed axial orientation and it has nothing to do with any perceived tilt of the axis to the orbital plane or to the Sun. If the seasons depended only on the orbital motion then when the Earth was at perihelion it would be summer in both the UK and Australia but as you have just been told, it is currently summer in the UK but winter in Australia. What you are trying to tell me is therefore unquestionably wrong no matter how arrogantly you state that opinion. The politicians and most everyone else have noticed a climatic imbalance or climate change as it is currently called,these same people are faced with scientists who cannot even determine what causes the natural seasonal variations for anyone who finds reason to argue with me cannot consider themselves to be scientific in any way. The scientific method requires our views to be drawn from observation of reality, and the observation, as you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely because my arguments are based purely on science that you cannot refute them, and you never will until you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern hemisphere. George |
#23
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In message , George Dishman
writes True, many people know that the axis of the Earth's _rotation_ currently passes close to Polaris: http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/umi-t.html Probably somewhat fewer also know that the axis of the Earth's _orbit_ passes close to Nu Draconis: http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/dra-t.html Yet another bookmark for my ridiculously large collection :-) Thanks, George. |
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Jonathan Silverlight wrote: In message .com, The seasons are mainly due to the axis of a planet being inclined to its orbit, so the day/night ratio changes as the planet goes round the Sun. Scientists,in describing the cause of seasonal change,are focusing on the wrong orientation for common sense dictates that the axial tilt is fixed as does not change - http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg Assuming people would actually like to know what causes seasonal changes from a global rather than a hemispherical perspective,the answer lies in the changing orbital orientation to the Sun. Equatorial orientation or hemispherical variations in the Sun's altitude is a chronic symptom of that awful maneuvering by 18tyh century cataloguers. At other times you could all sit back and pretend not to see but it really,really does not take much to see how orbital motion and orientation changes against a fixed axial orientation.If you are so dumb that you imagine a non existent axial tilt component to the orbital plane as an explantion for seasonal changes then be my guest because although the variation is orbital orientation is initially tricky to become famaliar with it becomes an easy and comfortable explanation after a while. Your empirical explanation,otoh,sticks out like a sore thumb. |
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George Dishman wrote: The scientific method requires our views to be drawn from observation of reality, and the observation, as you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely because my arguments are based purely on science that you cannot refute them, and you never will until you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern hemisphere. George To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through fixed axial orientation. The first heliocentrists jettisoned the illusion caused by the Earth's axial motion and orientation and treated orbital motion as an indepedent motion.This is how they infered heliocentricity by perceiving apparent retrograde as simply the Earth inner orbital circuit to the outer planets. http://www.opencourse.info/astronomy...turn_retro.gif The change in orbital orientation to the Sun is just an extension of that indepedent motion that can be enjoyed through the above sequence of motions using the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn as a gauge for the heliocentric motion of the Earth. If you believe the Earth has an axial tilt variation then you are a geocentrist because anybody with a shread of common sense knows that the Earth's axis is more or less fixed and subsequently so is Equatorial orientation. Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the seasons,the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed axial orientation generates the seasons. This is a new insight or rather it is one that emerges from the work of the early heliocentrists whereas your view is pure 18th century maneuvering in destroying the exquisite Equation of Time principles for the convenience of the celestial sphere and the Newtonian agenda. |
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Jonathan Silverlight wrote: In message .com, writes George Dishman wrote: The scientific method requires our views to be drawn from observation of reality, and the observation, as you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely because my arguments are based purely on science that you cannot refute them, and you never will until you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern hemisphere. George To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through fixed axial orientation. OK, one more time then I give up :-) Change in orientation relative to what? The first heliocentrists jettisoned the illusion caused by the Earth's axial motion and orientation and treated orbital motion as an indepedent motion. Are you saying it isn't independent? Or that somehow the idea has been lost since the time of Copernicus? Axial motion of the planets is completely separate from orbital motion, and the period of axial rotation of the planets varies from a few hours to more than a year. But even if a planet was tidally locked, you would still observe retrograde motion of the outer planets. Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the seasons,the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed axial orientation generates the seasons. This is a new insight But it isn't :-) It's garbled, but that is essentially what causes the seasons. But you have this fixed idea that the seasons are caused by the changing distance of the Earth from the Sun - at least, I assume that's why you keep posting that link to http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/images/04f15.jpg. destroying the exquisite Equation of Time principles for the convenience of the celestial sphere and the Newtonian agenda. Not again :-) Yet again, the Equation of Time is a result of a combination of axial tilt and an elliptical orbit. No more and no less. The Equation of Time is the bridge between natural noon and clock noon along a point of longitude from North to South Pole, in other words there is no hemispherical differences that require a division between summer/winter or where the Sun is against the Equator. The Equation of Time is therefore a product of changing orbital orientation as axial rotation is passing through it. 18th century cataloguers introduced an axial tilt component to the Earth in respect to the Sun in the form of the 'analemma' but it is just a useless fudge to make the celestial sphere fit with terrestial longitudes.The reason scientists,after 500 years of heliocentricity,can't attribute the correct cause for seasonal variations is because those numbskulls a few centuries ago altered an exquisite principle by introducing a non existent axial tilt component,you want to see garbled ,try the NASA expalantion- http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...s/980116c.html This is actually serious business and extremely newsworthy given the reliance on an accurate asssement of climate change begins with a correct attribution for seasonal changes.Scientists are required to drop this odd variation in axial tilt and keep that orientation fixed like most people with a shread of common sense would. http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg Because it is common sense does not mean that it is any less exciting for a tremendous amount of astronomical material is lost with the ridiculous contemporary setup. Be as sour as you like but there may be decent people here who are prepared to become astronomers from being mere cataloguers . |
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wrote in message oups.com... George Dishman wrote: The scientific method requires our views to be drawn from observation of reality, and the observation, as you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely because my arguments are based purely on science that you cannot refute them, and you never will until you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern hemisphere. To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through fixed axial orientation. Those words are virtually unintelligible so I'll go back to what you said earlier from which I believe you mean the seasons are caused by the varying distance of the Earth from the Sun (and not it's 'orientation') due to Kepler's First Law which is independent of the planet's rotation: wrote in message oups.com... To Jonathan .... That shadow/light division changes in accordance with Kepler's second law (see first diagram) thereby generating the Equation of Time differential between the natural day and the 24 hour clock day and more importantly seasonal variations from a global perspective rather than the pathetic winter/summer hemispherical descriptions. snip If you believe the Earth has an axial tilt variation Nobody has mentioned variation in this context, the tilt is fixed because the axis of rotation is fixed near Polaris while the axis of the orbital motion is fixed near Nu Draconis. then you are a geocentrist because anybody with a shread of common sense knows that the Earth's axis is more or less fixed and subsequently so is Equatorial orientation. I have recommended before that, if you intend to insult people, you should check your dictionary first. I have already posted a reply in which I explained to you what the words "geocentric" and "heliocentric" mean but it appears you haven't learned the lesson. Your misuse of the term shows nothing more than your own ignorance. Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the seasons, Read my previous post again where I already told you that. However, without those or the _fixed_ tilt of the rotational axis compared to the orbital axis, you are incapable of explaining why it is winter in Australia when it is summer in the UK, your are incapable of explaining when the shadow of a telegraph pole at noon is longer in winter than in summer. the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed axial orientation generates the seasons. Again, your words are meaningless, the only useful meaning I can ascribe to your phrase "the orbital orientation of the Earth" would be fixed on Nu Draconis so doesn't pass through anything because it doesn't move at all. This is a new insight ... Call it what you like, it is wrong. If you really are talking about the second law and not the first, it requires the season to be summer in Australia in July as you suggested a few posts back, and that is contradicted by reality. Nobody will do anything but pity your ignorance until you can resolve that. George |
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To George/Jonathan
Not once in all these years has one single person acknowledged how the pre-Copernican equable 24 hour day using the Equation of Time principles was adapted by the early heliocentrists to the principle of constant and independent rotation at 15 degrees per hour and 24 hours/360 degrees in total .Currently only axial rotation to the celestial sphere at 23 hours 56 min 04 sec is recognised as the rotational value through 360 degrees. Not once in the past week has one single person acknowledged that the contemporary attribution for seasonal change exists with the way the Earth turns in its orbital motion against a fixed axial orientation and in accordance with Kepler's second law . I can do no more than point out that if axial orientation is fixed then so is the Equatorial orientation and it cannot affect any changes in the seasons.To imagine otherwise,in the form of axial variations to the orbital plane,highlights the pandemic nature of thinking that originated with 17th and 18th century cataloguers. It is frightening that you and the other guy as representative of really big institutions would fight to retain something that is by nature a step above a flat Earth in the form of hemispherical differences between summer and winter explained by axial tilt.I would not appeal to you again and will take this material elsewhere for truly it is not difficult to understand beyond the initial unfamiliarity.Axial tilt is fixed so keep it and Equatorial orientation fixed - http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg There are over 42 million hits on google for climate change and not one single scientist,as yet, can identify the correct attribution for cyclical seasonal changes in climate.Maybe they are like you and get some perverse pleasure in sticking with reasoning that is slightly better than a flat and stationary Earth but the chances are they have overlooked the misconduct of 18th century cataloguers in fudging so much and they may even recognise the pride in the words of Abraham Lincoln - "I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors, and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views." |
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wrote in message oups.com... .... "I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors, and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views." Then when will you accept that the seasons in the hemispheres differ now that Klazmon has confirmed that it is currently winter in the southern hemisphere and I have confirmed it is summer here in northern hemisphere? You continue to preach a message that has been proven to be wrong beyond all possible doubt and you will consequently continue to be ignored by those who know the facts. George |
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