ASTRO: NGC 772

everything has a fair price

unfortunately a good many vendors seem to be engaged in wanton profiteering
and that doesn't benefit anyone including themselves.

Sooner or later even you will figure it out.


"Jon Christensen" wrote in message
...
Usually it's enjoyable to look at your fine pictures and engage in the
usual discourse in this group but you have a nasty habit of putting down
people's equipment usually in a round about way even if it doesn't seem
obvious to you. It's very annoying.


Jon Christensen


"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
. ..

"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
...
actually it has everything to do with the ratio of performance to price
Jon. If you think there's another agenda at play please state it overtly
instead of making an underhanded comment like you did that challenges my
integrity.

for a given level of figuring effort you will have a better figured
optic with a classical cassegrain than an RC. That is a fact.

Philipp Keller has a pretty carefully considered opinion on RCs versus
CCs on his website:

http://www.astrooptik.com/Komplettgeraete/Cassf9_e.htm

Roland Christen of AP fame has spoken to these figuring tradeoffs to
with the same comments I have made

James Mulherin of Optical mechanics has also expressed the same opinion
about the difficulty of figuring and the bang for the buck.

Optical engineering is about optimizing performance for a given price.
That's always my perspective on any comments that I make. Be it greedy
vendors overcharging for their products or vendors making promises that
are not met by their products: my numerous criticisms are all based on
price/performance optimization.

To assert that my opinions have anything to do with facts is
dissapointing


Sorry that should be in the negative; to say that my opinions are based
on anything other than the facts is dissappointing to hear from you Jon.
That's the sort of things I expect from vendors that are enjoying raping
and pillaging the masses when they don't like hearing what I have to say
about their little gig. That's not something I'd expect to hear from you.

"Jon Christensen" wrote in message
...
Usually it's enjoyable to look at your fine pictures and engage in the
usual discourse in this group but you have a nasty habit of putting down
people's equipment usually in a round about way even if it doesn't seem
obvious to you. It's very annoying.

while on the subjects of what we personally find very annoying, I find it
very annoying to see filter vendors selling mediocre filters for prices that
make you think they were made from gold. And then when you look behind the
curtain, you find out he is just a middleman, with someone else doing his
design and his manufacturing and all he does is market and mark up. What is
even more annoying is to watch the idiots falling all over themselves to
stand in line to get screwed by that guy and all saying how great it feels.

Additionally and equally annoying is the camera makers that sell cameras
that have useless features that no one uses, that in turn pushes up the
price of the products and then when you get one of these wonder boxes and
actually measure the parametric performance and find that they fall squarely
in last place in read noise, cooling and reliability.

Even more annoying are the idiots that line up falling all overthemselves to
be screwed by these guys.

Additionally and equally annoying are the software pimps that insert
themselves between developers and the user community, establish exclusive
distribution agreements, and then quadruple the price of the product to me
and you while adding no additonal value just like the street pimps with the
gold chains do.

And even more annoying are the idiots that line up falling all
overthemselves to be screwed by these guys

In fact the idiots are who I have the biggest issue with, because if they
all said HELL NO WE WILL NOT BUY THAT STUFF FOR THOSE INFLATED PRICES, those
greedy vendors would have to get realistic or starve.

But the idiots continue to screw us all by overpaying for nearly everything,
accepting poor performance and thinking that it is good. And because they
do, the situation is only getting worse. Price any 20" Ritcheys lately? One
brand has more than doubled in price in three years because of the fools I
mention above. His costs haven't doubled though and I still occasional see
the evidence of
turned down edges in some of their scopes. But you'd think these were the
finest
optics on the planet when you watch the idiots that buy them crow about them
while they apply their aperture masks to fix the TDE that they should have
sent back to demand the quality they were charged for.

And you think this is all just fine and dandy right Jon and if anyone dares
to speak up about it they are some sort of creep and outcast and curmudgeon,
right and the vendors must be defended at all costs no matter how much
contempt that have for you and the rest of their apologists?

Had anyone offer to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge lately Jon, if not, I'll
make you a hell of a deal on it and you can make all sorts of money charging
people to go over it.....

So why not we get back to astro imaging and you and your buddies that enjoy
being exploited go about being exploited and leave that topic out of this
discussion?









Jon Christensen


"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
. ..

"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
...
actually it has everything to do with the ratio of performance to price
Jon. If you think there's another agenda at play please state it overtly
instead of making an underhanded comment like you did that challenges my
integrity.

for a given level of figuring effort you will have a better figured
optic with a classical cassegrain than an RC. That is a fact.

Philipp Keller has a pretty carefully considered opinion on RCs versus
CCs on his website:

http://www.astrooptik.com/Komplettgeraete/Cassf9_e.htm

Roland Christen of AP fame has spoken to these figuring tradeoffs to
with the same comments I have made

James Mulherin of Optical mechanics has also expressed the same opinion
about the difficulty of figuring and the bang for the buck.

Optical engineering is about optimizing performance for a given price.
That's always my perspective on any comments that I make. Be it greedy
vendors overcharging for their products or vendors making promises that
are not met by their products: my numerous criticisms are all based on
price/performance optimization.

To assert that my opinions have anything to do with facts is
dissapointing


Sorry that should be in the negative; to say that my opinions are based
on anything other than the facts is dissappointing to hear from you Jon.
That's the sort of things I expect from vendors that are enjoying raping
and pillaging the masses when they don't like hearing what I have to say
about their little gig. That's not something I'd expect to hear from you.

Sounds like he got screwed. I think that just about everything made these
days comes from places like Red China and have well known names on them when
they reach here. As for cameras, well my 3 cameras don't have anything that
I don't use, after all, the newest one is my 1968 Topcon Super D, followed
by my 1954 Exa, followed by my 1930 Exacta. I have a 4th camera, but it's
only a display one as it's a 1964 Vouglander Bessamatic and I can't afford
to send it in for repairs, so I just dream and remember the times in
W.Germany when I used one of them.


--
There are those who believe that life here, began out there, far across the
universe, with tribes of humans, who may have been the forefathers of the
Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. Some believe that they may yet be
brothers of man, who even now fight to survive, somewhere beyond the
heavens.


The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
The Church of Eternity
http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html


"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
...

"Jon Christensen" wrote in message
...
Usually it's enjoyable to look at your fine pictures and engage in the
usual discourse in this group but you have a nasty habit of putting down
people's equipment usually in a round about way even if it doesn't seem
obvious to you. It's very annoying.

while on the subjects of what we personally find very annoying, I find it
very annoying to see filter vendors selling mediocre filters for prices
that
make you think they were made from gold. And then when you look behind the
curtain, you find out he is just a middleman, with someone else doing his
design and his manufacturing and all he does is market and mark up. What
is
even more annoying is to watch the idiots falling all over themselves to
stand in line to get screwed by that guy and all saying how great it
feels.

Additionally and equally annoying is the camera makers that sell cameras
that have useless features that no one uses, that in turn pushes up the
price of the products and then when you get one of these wonder boxes and
actually measure the parametric performance and find that they fall
squarely
in last place in read noise, cooling and reliability.

Even more annoying are the idiots that line up falling all overthemselves
to
be screwed by these guys.

Additionally and equally annoying are the software pimps that insert
themselves between developers and the user community, establish exclusive
distribution agreements, and then quadruple the price of the product to me
and you while adding no additonal value just like the street pimps with
the
gold chains do.

And even more annoying are the idiots that line up falling all
overthemselves to be screwed by these guys

In fact the idiots are who I have the biggest issue with, because if they
all said HELL NO WE WILL NOT BUY THAT STUFF FOR THOSE INFLATED PRICES,
those
greedy vendors would have to get realistic or starve.

But the idiots continue to screw us all by overpaying for nearly
everything,
accepting poor performance and thinking that it is good. And because they
do, the situation is only getting worse. Price any 20" Ritcheys lately?
One
brand has more than doubled in price in three years because of the fools I
mention above. His costs haven't doubled though and I still occasional see
the evidence of
turned down edges in some of their scopes. But you'd think these were the
finest
optics on the planet when you watch the idiots that buy them crow about
them
while they apply their aperture masks to fix the TDE that they should have
sent back to demand the quality they were charged for.

And you think this is all just fine and dandy right Jon and if anyone
dares
to speak up about it they are some sort of creep and outcast and
curmudgeon,
right and the vendors must be defended at all costs no matter how much
contempt that have for you and the rest of their apologists?

Had anyone offer to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge lately Jon, if not, I'll
make you a hell of a deal on it and you can make all sorts of money
charging
people to go over it.....

So why not we get back to astro imaging and you and your buddies that
enjoy being exploited go about being exploited and leave that topic out of
this discussion?









Jon Christensen


"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
. ..

"Richard Crisp" wrote in message
...
actually it has everything to do with the ratio of performance to price
Jon. If you think there's another agenda at play please state it
overtly
instead of making an underhanded comment like you did that challenges
my
integrity.

for a given level of figuring effort you will have a better figured
optic with a classical cassegrain than an RC. That is a fact.

Philipp Keller has a pretty carefully considered opinion on RCs versus
CCs on his website:

http://www.astrooptik.com/Komplettgeraete/Cassf9_e.htm

Roland Christen of AP fame has spoken to these figuring tradeoffs to
with the same comments I have made

James Mulherin of Optical mechanics has also expressed the same opinion
about the difficulty of figuring and the bang for the buck.

Optical engineering is about optimizing performance for a given price.
That's always my perspective on any comments that I make. Be it greedy
vendors overcharging for their products or vendors making promises that
are not met by their products: my numerous criticisms are all based on
price/performance optimization.

To assert that my opinions have anything to do with facts is
dissapointing


Sorry that should be in the negative; to say that my opinions are based
on anything other than the facts is dissappointing to hear from you Jon.
That's the sort of things I expect from vendors that are enjoying raping
and pillaging the masses when they don't like hearing what I have to say
about their little gig. That's not something I'd expect to hear from
you.