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Popping The Big Bang
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message om... Any way- answer the post or shut up! **** you, you ignorant troll. Your post has been answered. Learn some physics before attempting to beat off in public. |
#12
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Popping The Big Bang
"Catherine Hampton" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:46:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote: Are you trolling Greenfield? There is no edge--everywhere is the center. I doubt he's trolling. This is a misunderstanding I've bumped into among non-science people time and again when they're trying to understand space-time. My experience is that the "mental map" most people have of space-time isn't too different from what Newton held, although (of course) nowhere near as sophisticated. Most people are slaves to their mental images of reality; they might know, but don't really accept, that space-time as a whole can't be painted and doesn't "look" like any picture their minds can build. It takes a non-trivial grasp of mathematics (well past the standard high school two years of Algebra, one year of Geometry, and perhaps one of Trigonometry) before a person has the mental tools to begin to understand just how strange the universe is. Isn't it wonderful? Not that so few people have those tools, but that at least some do? It's wonderful if you have the tools, but it's *damned* frustrating when you don't. I *hate* not being able to understand stuff and I have to admit I just don't get some (or maybe even most LOL) of modern cosmology. Many questions, but no desire for ridicule. ;-) -- -Randy (OF+) 'Up the stairs. Into the fire.' -- Catherine Hampton Home Page * http://www.devsite.org/ The SpamBouncer * http://www.spambouncer.org/ (Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a spam trap.) |
#14
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Popping The Big Bang
Jim Greenfield wrote:
"J. Scott Miller" wrote in message ... Thanks again for once again demonstrating how a lack of understanding of a scientific theory allows one to make foolish statements in public. My suggestion - get some knowledge and stop making stupid statements. If you can't 'see' that the whole BBB's was proposed because the earth 'seemed' to be near the center of the universe, as every way we look the red shift appears to show galaxies moving away, then YOU fit the description! if that is what you 'see', then you have misunderstood the bb theory. How handy is it that 'space is expanding, taking matter with it'?? How handy is it that the speed of light is finite, so that as we look further out in the universe we see it how it was longer back in the past. what we see at 13B ly away is not the edge of the universe, what we see there is how the universe was 13B years ago; relativly shortly after the BB. -- And so it goes... On The Brink... Our lives like granuals of sand through the hourglass... Do you know what time it is? That's the question. |
#15
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Popping The Big Bang
Jim Greenfield wrote:
With mounting conjecture that we 'are not alone' in the universe, it might be timely to appreciate how truly fortunate WE are in viewing the heavens. Apparently we are close to the position of the 'singularity' from which the universe sprung into being some 13.7 billion years ago, and can see its glory in all directions. We are not at the centre of the universe (as far as I know) but at the centre of cosmological expansion. Each and every point in space is by BB a place where expansion begins and thus at a centre of cosmological expansion. Given enough time (i believe about 15bly) then we (Earth) would indeed become a centre of our *observable* universe since expansion velocity at 14-15 billion light years would be greater than C and light from those distant objects could never reach us. Not so those poor souls at the extremities! Our observable universe may only be analogous in size to the whole universe as a speck is to our own observable universe. An object at 15 billion light years distant to us is in this way not really at the edge of the universe but only at the edge of our visible universe. What's at the true extremities of the universe which may be much larger than our visible universe? Nothing. It's theoretically just empty expanded spacetime. Thus there are no observers sitting out on the true edge looking into the inky abyss (false vacuum if it still exists at this time). If as claimed, the edge of the universe is 13.7 bly away, That is estimated age of the universe. Who said it represented the distance to the edge? It may turn out that at an age of 13.7bly we are indeed at the centre of our observable universe by now. That is not the same thing as being at the centre of the universe at large. the total width becomes 27.4 bly, and so they are only able to 'see' as far as us (half of it). AND this doesn't take into account the fact that the material of their home has travelled out from "The Big Bang" for 13.7 billion years (and that's allowing light speed for matter), and then emmitted light back to us that is claimed to have also taken 13.7 billion years for the trip = light and mass travelling about the universe for 27.4 by then, when it is only 13.7 to begin with!! Anyone living at the edge of our observable universe has their own observable universe of 13.7 billion years age and visible horizon just like ours but of course they will see another vista. So what do those beings see? Not us, as they are more light years away than the earth's age, and certainly not behind us (in their view), as we are at the 13.7 limit of their view. And what if they look outward? Are they gazing into an inky abyss? No, they may be looking at a rareified region of the universe. Now aren't we just so privileged to live at the center of it all? (And isn't 'The Big Bang' such an imaginitive load of rubbish??) It's imaginative alright. Jim Greenfield |
#16
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Popping The Big Bang
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message om... Any way- answer the post or shut up! First things first: What is it's age? 13.7 +/- 0.2 based on the WMAP probe measurements of the CMBR: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_age.html See this site for info on WMAP: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ and the CMBR: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html Lets assume 13.701 for the sake of this discussion. Can a being at position 13.7 bly west of here, see one 13.7 east? (I assume "west" means in some arbitrary direction and "east" means in the opposite direction. A being 13.7 billion light years away is unlikely to share our definitions of east and west.) If we look 13.7 bly west, we might see a clump of hydrogen and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang' that would later become a galaxy. A being living there then could only see 100 million light years in any direction where they would see the CMBR that we measure, and within that region they would see little more than clumps of gas that would later become galaxies. A being (called Jim) living in that galaxy 13.7 billion years later could look east and see a clump of hydrogen and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang' that would later become our galaxy. What do they observe when they 'look beyond'? Jim would see the same as us, galaxies distributed evenly throughout the whole region he could observe. If he looked west he could see a patch of hydrogen and helium gas 13.7 bly away, as it was 1 million years after the 'bang', that would later become a galaxy. That galaxy's light has not yet reached us. A being (called Sheila) living in that galaxy 13.7 billion years later would see the same as Jim and us, galaxies distributed evenly throughout the whole region she could observe. If she looked east, she would see the patch of gas destined to become Jim's galaxy as it was 1 million years after the 'bang', and if she looked west, ... What are the dimensions of the universe? Very much bigger than the patch we can see, possibly infinite. Imagine repeating the above series of beings seeing clumps of gas that would become galaxies containing other beings at least billions of times. Has light from one side of the universe reached the other? The universe doesn't have sides. (Some people are afraid of the dark, and BBs and DHRs of 1/0 ) Some people are afraid of what they cannot comprehend. Some people are afraid of what we see. We still see it and it is still there whether anyone comprehends it or not. http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm.html George |
#17
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Popping The Big Bang
Jim Greenfield wrote:
With mounting conjecture that we 'are not alone' in the universe, it might be timely to appreciate how truly fortunate WE are in viewing the heavens. Bull**** meter quivers and it isn't even uncrated yet. Apparently we are close to the position of the 'singularity' from which the universe sprung into being some 13.7 billion years ago, and can see its glory in all directions. Bull****. Bull****! Your tongue isn't connected to yoru brain by simple observation. Every point in the universe is at its exact center *right now* and is equally distant from the Big Bang. As you look into space you look back into time and *right now* isn't there yet. Not so those poor souls at the extremities! BULL****. Go out at night. Look at a far galaxy at one horizon and than at another 180 degrees away. Theya aren't in each other's light cones. Neither one exists as viewed by the other. If as claimed, the edge of the universe is 13.7 bly away, the total width becomes 27.4 bly, and so they are only able to 'see' as far as us (half of it). Bull****. You don't know anything about inflation or your light cone. [snip] (And isn't 'The Big Bang' such an imaginitive load of rubbish??) Yeah, and cosmic background radiation and its power spectrum don't exist, either. Idiot. -- Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net! |
#18
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Popping The Big Bang
"George Dishman" wrote in message ...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message om... First things first: What is it's age? 13.7 +/- 0.2 based on the WMAP probe measurements of the CMBR: : http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html Lets assume 13.701 for the sake of this discussion. Can a being at position 13.7 bly west of here, see one 13.7 east? (I assume "west" means in some arbitrary direction and "east" means in the opposite direction. A being 13.7 billion light years away is unlikely to share our definitions of east and west.) If we look 13.7 bly west, we might see a clump of hydrogen and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang' that would later become a galaxy. A being living there then could only see 100 million light years in any direction where they would see the CMBR that we measure, and within that region they would see little more than clumps of gas that would later become galaxies. Yes! That IS what we Should see, but photos of very distant galaxies Don't show that. We Don't see 'clumps of gas', but galaxies which may be similar to our own. If they were 13 b years younger, one would expect them to look different. A being (called Jim) living in that galaxy 13.7 billion years later could look east and see a clump of hydrogen and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang' that would later become our galaxy. What do they observe when they 'look beyond'? Jim would see the same as us, galaxies distributed evenly throughout the whole region he could observe. If he looked west he could see a patch of hydrogen and helium gas 13.7 bly away, as it was 1 million years after the 'bang', that would later become a galaxy. That galaxy's light has not yet reached us. A being (called Sheila) living in that galaxy 13.7 billion years later would see the same as Jim and us, galaxies distributed evenly throughout the whole region she could observe. If she looked east, she would see the patch of gas destined to become Jim's galaxy as it was 1 million years after the 'bang', and if she looked west, ... STOP RIGHT HERE! Why didn't you elaborate? What are the dimensions of the universe? Very much bigger than the patch we can see, possibly infinite. Imagine repeating the above series of beings seeing clumps of gas that would become galaxies containing other beings at least billions of times. This is Exactly My Point! I to believe the universe to be infinite-- not constricted by the boundaries and limitations of some sudden past singular event. Has light from one side of the universe reached the other? The universe doesn't have sides. Sooner or later some Big Banger will go on about living on an expanding 'membrane' similar to a balloon. That would represent the sides I refer to here. I agree; there are no sides because the dimensions are infinite. George, the concepts of infinity and BB are oxymoronic and incompatible. Thanks for your reply Jim G (Some people are afraid of the dark, and BBs and DHRs of 1/0 ) Some people are afraid of what they cannot comprehend. Some people are afraid of what we see. We still see it and it is still there whether anyone comprehends it or not. http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm.html George |
#19
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Popping The Big Bang
Jim Greenfield wrote: Sooner or later some Big Banger will go on about living on an expanding 'membrane' similar to a balloon. That would represent the sides I refer to here. I agree; there are no sides because the dimensions are infinite. George, the concepts of infinity and BB are oxymoronic and incompatible. Thanks for your reply Jim G There are many possible models to consider. Provide the mathematical modeling for your preference, then we'll talk. |
#20
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Popping The Big Bang
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:y8a9b.56231$Qy4.49289@fed1read05...
Dear Jim Greenfield: "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message om... ... Apparently we are close to the position of the 'singularity' from http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_01.htm A good a place as any as to "what we see" means. Especially part 2. David A. Smith Hi! I had a look at your site, and got two immediate 'ears pricked'. The first was a mention of positive and negative directions. I have oft suggested that this concept is unacceptable in any arguement; direction and distance are Always positive (may be "less than"). Second, and importantly, to maintain isotropy and homogeneity in an expanding universe endows the closer to center galxies with some form of telepathy! An expanding smoke cloud does not maintain homogeneity- neither would an expanding universe! Simple geometry shows the outer galaxies spreading faster, so the inner ones need a mechanism to maintain an equal separation..... ("POP") Jim G |
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